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I have to agree with Boompa in that individuals, once they have a religious experience, tend to become presumptuous and self-righteous. Having said that, I wonder if that specific mistake (i.e. pride) isn't a common mistake that we learn to overcome partly by experience. However, overcoming this pride make take time.
Also, the experience of finally realizing that one is proud is also a valuable insight to experience. To see and experience this specific weakness from both sides may have some value from an eternal perspective (if people can have enough patience with us and not kill us while they are waiting for us to mature enough to outgrow out immature tendency to be proud...).
For example, Peter asked Jesus question : "... Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. " matt 18:21-22 I think this is the sort of question a somewhat self-righteous Peter (or the rest of us who are self-righteous) might have asked. how many times must I (the good person) forgive this sinner (the obvious less righteous slob I'm asking about - the one who disagrees with my religious views on city-data-forums...).
However, just as Peter needed time to discover just how weak he was, and to discover his OWN weaknesses , I would expect that, after having just denied Jesus three times, Peter's question might have been something like : "Lord, how oft shall I sin against my brother" and still be forgiven? ...Till seven times?". It may take us some time to realize that the number is the same in both cases. And importantly, as we mature, it becomes more obvious that we are in need of asking for forgiveness, and asking for it fairly often. I don't think this is something the self-righteous can see initially, since they are too busy scrutinizing someone else' faults.
Like the others, I do not think that being "born again" itself makes causes us to be proud and spiteful, but it is the presumption and pride within one who has experienced religion, that has yet to be slowly purged from us. I think when we first experience religious conviction, the slow process of sanctification that will ultimately help us overcome distasteful pride, has often only just started, but has not yet done it's best work in us.
Clear
Last edited by Clear lens; 04-07-2011 at 11:42 PM..
Actually, I can. John 13:35 says, "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." It's the people who claim to love Christ who are so often hateful to one another. I watched the entire Annie Herring video and I noticed that she failed to mention anything about how having been born again changed the way in which she related to her fellow human beings. That's what this thread is all about. If being born makes your life so much better, why is the joy you feel not reflected in your interactions with others? I think it should be, but I'm not seeing that here on City-Data.
Again, the question you are asking is an accusation in the same manner of the old "how often do you beat your wife" famous one.
The passage in the NT you pasted does not say that born again in Christ people have the worst brought out in them. You changed it to say those who "claim" in your post above, from your initial OP of those who "are".
Watch more of Annie and read her testimony online and you'll see a transformed woman who was born into the Spirit of Christ and whose life was changed 180 degrees.
I posted that video at the time because we have been listening to the music of Annie and her siblings online for a few days, and enjoying the Spirit of God ministering to others in that music. Their lives have blessed countless young people and older people over the years, to turn their hearts to the LORD and be born again in Christ.
Being born again in Christ first of all is a real birth into the family and name of the Living God come in flesh as our Kinsman/Redeemer. We be born again by His Spirit of adoption, first, and then we learn to live in Him, and walk in His Spirit, crucifying the old man, Adam, nature that we continue to wear until this flesh is regenerated into the adoption flesh body, like our spirit is regenerated into the adoption Spirit of Christ.
Being born again is not a philosophy we adopt, but an actual, real, regeneration of Spirit into the One Living Spirit of Christ. It is a personal thing, not a groupie thing, and comes of honest conviction by the Holy Spirit, of sin, righteousness and judgment, in our own personal lives. Being born again from above by the Spirit of adoption regenerating us into His One Living Spirit is the only way to be a member of the family of God and therefore a "son of God" of the human being kind, in the New Man name.
Anyone can claim they are born again or anyone can say "Jesus is Lord", but only those who have received the Spirit of adoption and is in that Spirit of adoption has the authority/power =Greek "Dunamis", to say "Jesus is LORD" -1 Cor 12:3
I have to agree with Boompa in that individuals, once they have a religious experience, tend to become presumptuous and self-righteous. Having said that, I wonder if that specific mistake (i.e. pride) isn't a common mistake that we learn to overcome partly by experience. However, overcoming this pride make take time.
Also, the experience of finally realizing that one is proud is also a valuable insight to experience. To see and experience this specific weakness from both sides may have some value from an eternal perspective (if people can have enough patience with us and not kill us while they are waiting for us to mature enough to outgrow out immature tendency to be proud...).
For example, Peter asked Jesus question : "... Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. " matt 18:21-22 I think this is the sort of question a somewhat self-righteous Peter (or the rest of us who are self-righteous) might have asked. how many times must I (the good person) forgive this sinner (the obvious less righteous slob I'm asking about - the one who disagrees with my religious views on city-data-forums...).
However, just as Peter needed time to discover just how weak he was, and to discover his OWN weaknesses , I would expect that, after having just denied Jesus three times, Peter's question might have been something like : "Lord, how oft shall I sin against my brother" and still be forgiven? ...Till seven times?". It may take us some time to realize that the number is the same in both cases. And importantly, as we mature, it becomes more obvious that we are in need of asking for forgiveness, and asking for it fairly often. I don't think this is something the self-righteous can see initially, since they are too busy scrutinizing someone else' faults.
Like the others, I do not think that being "born again" itself makes causes us to be proud and spiteful, but it is the presumption and pride within one who has experienced religion, that has yet to be slowly purged from us. I think when we first experience religious conviction, the slow process of sanctification that will ultimately help us overcome distasteful pride, has often only just started, but has not yet done it's best work in us.
Clear
Clear,
Your post is full of wisdom and clarity. You're right, it is a challenge to put up with those who are filled with pride and don't even realize it. But those who have overcome in various tendencies toward sin are charged with being patient with those who have not yet overcome, just as God has been long-suffering and very patient with us. I'm grateful for the truth and clarity and sincerity of your answer to the original question. No wonder it is called "The patience of Job" (such a great lesson from the OT). Not only did he have to endure the devil destroying all that he loved, but then on top of that he had to learn patience by listening to the opinions of his self-righteous "friends" giving him advice and purporting to tell him the mind of God in all his troubles. I'm glad those stories were written down for our learning.
It seems to me that it should be just the opposite. Your thoughts?
Becasue they aren't born again. Being born again means receiving a new heart in the way Jesus explained. By becoming fully divine with no sin or inclination to sin. Changing from a natural love being to a Divine Love being. Most born agains don't believe that it's love that saves you from sin so they don't persue the Love that is freely given upon asking. A true born again person is perfect as our Father is perfect. They do not judge, condemn, hate, anger or have any negative attributes. Remember Jesus said "Ye must be born again to enter the Kingdom of God".
The question is hostile and this is ending up ANOTHER bash Christians and twist Christianity beliefs thread.....true or sincere Christians should IGGY this one.
The question is hostile and this is ending up ANOTHER bash Christians and twist Christianity beliefs thread.....true or sincere Christians should IGGY this one.
If we claim to be God's mouthpiece, then we need to expect scrutiny from those who do not believe.
And, more importantly, we need to judge ourselves so that we don't end up in judgement!
It's all too easy to get on our soapbox for God, and then cry "persecution!" when others don't agree with us, or when they point out our mistakes.
Well, I actually think that the OP makes a legitimate point. While I believe the sincerity of people who say they've been born again, too many of them remind of alcoholics who have entered a twelve-step program: They not only want to tell everybody else about their experience, but they also think everybody else should go through the exact same experience. In other ways, if you're a hammer, the rest of the world looks like a nail.
Faith just isn't that way. For some it comes like a bolt out of the blue. For others it is the slow and steady dawning of understanding. But, in the end, faith is faith, and it is the sin of arrogance to presume that one's method of arriving at an understanding of God's divine love is superior to another.
I suppose that's the problem I have with so many posts and posters on this board. I am always amazed at how people assume that THEIR approach, THEIR denomination, THEIR beliefs are the only possible way, and that only they have gleaned the sacred truth. As if they know the content of other people's hearts and that God only whispers in their ears. Almost all denominations have their strengths, and all denominations have their flaws.
And yet there are far too many posters on here who are busying themselves pointing out the flaws in the beliefs of others. Personally, I can't imagine a less Christian thing to do.
I was actually being sarcastic, Finn. I believe I have been born again, but we Mormons don't use the phrase all that much. I've just noticed that so many of the Christians who are so in-you-face about having been born again are the ones who seem to be the least like Christ. It strikes me as odd.
OK, so you are born again, but you are cool, it's the other guys who suck. Gottcha!!
I don't see this "in your face" stuff in real life. Are you talking about real life or just this forum?
I have come to expect anti-Christian stabs from the uni's but now the mormons too. Why?
Et tu, Brutus....
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 04-08-2011 at 07:28 AM..
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