John 3:5. ''Unless one is born of water and of the Spirit...'' (purification, Gospels)

[Mike555]

Originally Posted by Clear lens

Mike, not only did you NOT show katymygirl a single scripture (which was her request), but your response, (which is simply made up of a series of claims) is a good example of “doctrine by improvisation” and shows us how the adoption of one erroneous theory then requires one to come up with a series of other theories to support it. The early Judao Christian doctrine does not need such complicated rhetoric and other theories to support it. This sort of “doctrine by improvisation ” that you are engaging in, is complicating and obscuring early doctrines rather than illuminating simple truths.

Look at the component parts of this improvised theory you are suggesting and compare it to early Judao-Christian belief. The original and early Judao-Christian beliefs regarding the nature of man were clearer; were much less complicated and their beliefs made much more sense. Do you mind if we discuss these claims one by one?

1) Mikes claim number one : “At the moment a person believes in Christ for salvation, the Holy Spirit creates a human spirit to which God the Father imputes His very own eternal life.” This claim is simply silly.

The early Judao-Christian documents are clear that there is a spirit within the human is present at birth, in all individuals whether they are believers or athiests.


1) REGARDING THE ANCIENT JUDAO-CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE OF THE PRE-EXISTENCE OF SOULS

One might keep in mind that when we are talking about HISTORICAL (i.e. ancient Judao-Christianity) then it is a HISTORICAL DISCUSSION. In this context, the doctrine of Pre-mortal Existence of souls WAS PERFECTLY ORTHODOX IN JUDAO-CHRISTIANITIES OF THE FIRST CENTURY and, as the Roman Church moved away from such doctrines it only BECAME, IN LATER CENTURIES, unorthodox.


THE IMPORTANCE OF KNOWLEDGE REGARDING THE PRE-CREATION CONDITIONS AND MANKIND

Pre-mortal existence of Souls was one of several authentic early doctrines whose abandonment has caused endless headaches, confusion and arguments among philosophers and theologians that the Christian Saints of former days were not subject to before the doctrine was abandoned.

I do not think many Christians fully understand and appreciate the immense contextual value of a return to this doctrine and what sort of theological compensatory distortions occur in it's absence for Christianities who've abandoned it. Many of the greatest existential questions concern the pre-mortal period of time. Without a knowledge and understanding of THIS time period, one cannot understand in context many of the greatest controversies and the most profound and sublime doctrines of Christianity.

For example an understanding of what went on before the creation of the earth concerns such things as :

1) The original purpose and plan of God and conditions under which he decided to initiate his creation have to do with this time period.
2) The most profound considerations concerning the origin of evil relate to conditions Prior to creation of the earth
3) The nature of the devil and his fall from “heaven” has to do with the Pre-mortal time period.
4) The nature of and issues underlying the “war in heaven” have to do with the pre-creation period.
5) The role of the Fall of man in God’s plan has much to do with events PRIOR to Adam having been placed in the Garden.
6) The underlying reasons why some individuals are born into apparently arbitrary and unjust life scenarios are placed into a more understandable context by the greater data provided by conditions during the pre-mortal existence.

Knowledge of the pre-existence gives us much greater insight into controversies which have plagued non-pre-existent Christianities for over 1700 years. Many of these millennia-long debates are neatly answered, simply by a return to the early doctrines.

MULTIPLE JUDAO-CHRISTIAN TEXTS DESCRIBE PRE-MORTAL EXISTENCE AND IT’S RELATIONSHIP TO PRESENT CONDITIONS

Many, many of the earliest Judao-Christian sacred Texts, relate the expansive doctrine of the pre-mortal realm and the nature of spirits there and God’s purposes for creation. The theme of pre-creation and what happened there is written into the early sacred texts, their hymns contain the doctrine; virtually ALL of the ascension literature contains the doctrine, the war in heaven texts certainly contain the doctrine; the earliest liturgies contain the doctrine; the midrashic texts contain the doctrine, the Jewish Haggadah contains the doctrine, the Zohar contains it; the testament literature is full of it. One simply cannot READ the earliest sacred Judao-Christian texts without reference to this early Christian doctrine. This vast early literature is part of the context for early christians and illuminates their understanding of biblical texts that reference this pre-creation time period and what happened there. For examples :


Inasmuch as this is HISTORICAL thread (at this point), remember to USE the words in the ancient context. For example when Adam's spirit (in abbaton text) is placed into his body and be thereby becomes a man, he exclaims that he is "created" into another form. In the ancient context, he is referring, NOT to his spirit (which obviously did exist since it talked and communicated and did things), but he was re-created into a MAN. Enoch, in his vision of pre-creation heaven, relates seeing the spirits that have populated and will populate the earth during it’s existence :
The great scribe Enoch is commanded by the angel to :
In his vision the angel bids Enoch, “Come and I will show you the souls of the righteous who have already been created and have returned, and the souls of the righteous who have not yet been created.” After seeing various pre-existent souls, the ancient midrashic explanation is given us by himself Enoch regarding these many souls says :
The vast ascension literature, describes the pre-creation realm of spirits. Abraham, in his ascension Vision describes the unnumbered spirits he sees, many of whom are waiting to come into mortality. The angel says to Abraham :
The doctrine of pre-mortal existence of the spirits within men permeates the biblical text as well. A knowledge of this simple principle explains and underlying so many of the quotes in many other texts as well. In the Old testament it was said : “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (ecclesiates 12:7). This principle is mirrored in multiple other early Judao Christian texts as well : When God the Father commands the son to “Go, take the soul of my beloved Sedrach, and put it in Paradise.” The only begotten Son said to Sedrach, “give me that which our Father deposited in the womb of your mother in your holy dwelling place since you were born.” (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 9:1-2 and 5).
When the Son finally DOES take the Soul of the Mortal Sedrach, he simply takes it back to God “where it came from”. God’s statement to the prophet Sedrach is simply a rephrase of what God said in Old Testament Ecclesiastes 12:7...” and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.” This principle is repeated in this same ancient usage in many of the ancient sacred texts from the earliest periods.

“Jesus said, “Blessed are the solitary and elect, for you will find the Kingdom. For you are from it, and to it you will return.” (THE GOSPEL OF THOMAS v 49)

“Therefore, fear not death. For that which is from me, that is the soul, departs for heaven. That which is from the earth, that is the body, departs for the earth from which it was taken.” (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4)


The Early Christian usage of Ecclesiates 12:7 was used in this same way by the Apostle Peter as he explained to Clement that "This world was made so that the number of spirits predestined to come here when their number was full could receive their bodies and again be conducted back to the light." (Recognitions)


In this same ancient context, the question God asked Job; “Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?”; was NOT simply rhetorical, but it was a REMINDER :

"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Job 38:4-7)

In this early Judao-Christian context, Job KNEW the answer when God asked where Job was when God laid the foundations of the earth “and all the sons of God shouted for joy”. The texts are explicit that the spirits were taught regarding God’s plan to send the spirits of men to earth. They knew they would undergo a fall of Adam and Of the pre-mortal Redeemer. The savior describes this period of time to the ancient Prophet Seth when sons of God shouted for Joy. The redeemer said regarding this time period before creation in a assembly of jubilant spirits :
In explaining the relationship the pre-mortal realm of spirits, to the current time when individuals do as they please, unhampered (as it were), by a remembrance of pre-mortal relationships, the messiah remarked :
The early Christian doctrine of Pre-mortal existence removed arbitrariness out of the accusation that God himself created spirits unequally. IN this ancient model, the spirits are partly responsible for their own nature upon entering this life. Instead of arbitrarily creating spirits with defects (the very defects for which spirits may be punished for later), in this early christian context, the Lord creates the body in relationship to certain characteristics the spirit has already obtained (or did not obtain) in it’s heavenly abode over vast periods of time. For example, Napthali explains this to his sons from the testament literature :
In the context of the spirit of man existing long before other spirits, Jewish Haggadah relates that “Instead of being the last, man is really the first work of creation...With the soul of Adam the souls of all the generations of men were created. They are stored up in a promptuary, in the seventh of the heavens, whence they are drawn as they are needed for human body after human body.” The Haggadah (The Soul of Man)

This it the very same teaching the Apostle Peter taught the Christian convert Clement. The Apostle Peter tells the young christian convert Clement about the pre-earth council and man’s place within this plan : "which (plan) He [God the Father] of his own good pleasure announced in the presence of all the first angels which were assembled before Him. Last of all He made man whose real nature, however, is older and for whose sake all this was created." (Recognitions)

The principle that man’s spirit pre-exists the creation was one of the FIRST things the Apostle Peter teaches Clement. I believe there is a reason the Apostle Peter taught the principle of Pre-Existence to Clement at an early stage in Clements conversion to Christianity. Perhaps, for such theists, the key to understanding what God is doing with mankind is contained inside of the concept that we are eternally spiritual.

Many early Judao-Christian texts are quite explicit in explaining the doctrines underlying the New Testament Theology on this subject. For example : Speaking of the souls of men and the manner after which they are sent from their heavenly dwelling place to earth, the Haggadah relates :
Occasionally the spirit is reluctant to leave the untainted pre-mortal heaven for an earth where she knows her existence will be more difficult as she gains her moral education by coming to earth. In such accounts, God is NOT angry but the text says “ God consoles her. The text relates God telling the soul that
The entire chapter regarding the soul of man discussed in detail what happens with spirits before they enter the body and it relates their forgetting of their prior preparation and existence with God. (I might mention that souls anciently are all described in the female gender - like ships are - in modern parlance)


Such principles in the Haggadic text (which is related to the talmudic history) is mirrored in several other texts. For example, the Zohar confirms the doctrine as it relates essentially the same description. :
In very symbolic language, the Zohar relates the creation of the souls in heaven to the point that they become formed and cognizant and take on characteristics they will keep with them when they are placed into bodies at birth, even to the point of having gender. Speaking of these fully developed souls it says :
.
.
.
THE LOSS OF MANY EARLY DOCTRINES

The centuries following the death of Christ were described by a logia of Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas as follows :

This logia is one of many sad descriptions of the failed attempt to pass on the doctrines and traditions of the early Christianities to later generations, however, in the last days, when one looks inside of modern Christian Churches, one finds that much of the doctrinal substance that gave the early Church it’s value, is no longer to be found in it. The modern Christians have lost much of the precious knowledge for which the agnostics and philosophers have been clamoring and debating over for 1700 years. However, your habit of "creating doctrine by improvisation" is NOT going to improve upon the earliest doctrines, but instead will end up simply creating more problems than it solves



Clear lens
netzacci

I did indeed answer her question. That you don't like the fact that I directed her to five different studies on the doctrine of regeneration as well as give a brief explanation is no concern of mine.

To look at those studies (which aren't mine) and then say that I improvised or made them up is asinine.

You should spend more time on the word of God under a knowledgeable pastor and a little less time on extra-Biblical studies. Only what is in the Bible is God-breathed. The early church had its heresies and varying beliefs just as the church today does.


And no, I do not create doctrine by improvisation. Everything that I post on this forum has been learned from knowledgeable pastor-teachers.

Do not take this thread off topic which has to do with the meaning of being born of water and of the Spirit.

[Clear lens]

Mike555;

I am not trying to take the thread off topic. Think about my post as a response to YOUR claim (which was part OF a definition of rebirth).


As part of YOUR attempt to define the rebirth, YOU claimed that :

"At the moment of faith in Christ, God the Holy Spirit creates a human spirit and places it in the one who has believed. The human spirit is a home to which God the Father makes a real imputation of His very own eternal life. " – Mike555s claim”

When Katiemygirl aske for you to “show me the scripture that says "At the moment of faith in Christ, God the Holy Spirit creates a human spirit and places it in the one who has believed." You responded with yet another group of claims :

Mike555s second group of claims to answer his first claim : "At the moment a person believes in Christ for salvation, the Holy Spirit creates a human spirit to which God the Father imputes His very own eternal life. When God created Adam, He created him as a trichotomous being. Body, soul, and human spirit. When Adam sinned he died spiritually. He lost his human spirit and therefore, his relationship with God. Thereafter, when anyone is physically born, he is born as a dichotomous being. Body and soul. No human spirit. He is therefore born spiritually dead- separated from God. That is why man must be born again - regenerated. Regeneration refers to the spiritual rebirth which involves the restoration of a human spirit to the one who believes in Christ."

My response referenced YOUR definition OF the spirit birth, specifically your claim regarding WHEN the spirit within mankind exists: thus my post reflected this :

Look at the component parts of this improvised theory you are suggesting and compare it to early Judao-Christian belief. The original and early Judao-Christian beliefs regarding the nature of man were clearer; were much less complicated and their beliefs made much more sense. Do you mind if we discuss these claims one by one?

1) Mikes claim number one : “At the moment a person believes in Christ for salvation, the Holy Spirit creates a human spirit to which God the Father imputes His very own eternal life.” This claim is simply silly.

The early Judao-Christian documents are clear that there is a spirit within the human is present at birth, in all individuals whether they are believers or athiests.


1) REGARDING THE ANCIENT JUDAO-CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE OF THE PRE-EXISTENCE OF SOULS

One might keep in mind that when we are talking about HISTORICAL (i.e. ancient Judao-Christianity) then it is a HISTORICAL DISCUSSION. In this context, the doctrine of Pre-mortal Existence of souls WAS PERFECTLY ORTHODOX IN JUDAO-CHRISTIANITIES OF THE FIRST CENTURY and, as the Roman Church moved away from such doctrines it only BECAME, IN LATER CENTURIES, unorthodox.


THE IMPORTANCE OF KNOWLEDGE REGARDING THE PRE-CREATION CONDITIONS AND MANKIND

Pre-mortal existence of Souls was one of several authentic early doctrines whose abandonment has caused endless headaches, confusion and arguments among philosophers and theologians that the Christian Saints of former days were not subject to before the doctrine was abandoned.

I do not think many Christians fully understand and appreciate the immense contextual value of a return to this doctrine and what sort of theological compensatory distortions occur in it's absence for Christianities who've abandoned it. Many of the greatest existential questions concern the pre-mortal period of time. Without a knowledge and understanding of THIS time period, one cannot understand in context many of the greatest controversies and the most profound and sublime doctrines of Christianity.

For example an understanding of what went on before the creation of the earth concerns such things as :

1) The original purpose and plan of God and conditions under which he decided to initiate his creation have to do with this time period.
2) The most profound considerations concerning the origin of evil relate to conditions Prior to creation of the earth
3) The nature of the devil and his fall from “heaven” has to do with the Pre-mortal time period.
4) The nature of and issues underlying the “war in heaven” have to do with the pre-creation period.
5) The role of the Fall of man in God’s plan has much to do with events PRIOR to Adam having been placed in the Garden.
6) The underlying reasons why some individuals are born into apparently arbitrary and unjust life scenarios are placed into a more understandable context by the greater data provided by conditions during the pre-mortal existence.

Knowledge of the pre-existence gives us much greater insight into controversies which have plagued non-pre-existent Christianities for over 1700 years. Many of these millennia-long debates are neatly answered, simply by a return to the early doctrines.

MULTIPLE JUDAO-CHRISTIAN TEXTS DESCRIBE PRE-MORTAL EXISTENCE AND IT’S RELATIONSHIP TO PRESENT CONDITIONS

Many, many of the earliest Judao-Christian sacred Texts, relate the expansive doctrine of the pre-mortal realm and the nature of spirits there and God’s purposes for creation. The theme of pre-creation and what happened there is written into the early sacred texts, their hymns contain the doctrine; virtually ALL of the ascension literature contains the doctrine, the war in heaven texts certainly contain the doctrine; the earliest liturgies contain the doctrine; the midrashic texts contain the doctrine, the Jewish Haggadah contains the doctrine, the Zohar contains it; the testament literature is full of it. One simply cannot READ the earliest sacred Judao-Christian texts without reference to this early Christian doctrine. This vast early literature is part of the context for early christians and illuminates their understanding of biblical texts that reference this pre-creation time period and what happened there. For examples :


Inasmuch as this is HISTORICAL thread (at this point), remember to USE the words in the ancient context. For example when Adam's spirit (in abbaton text) is placed into his body and be thereby becomes a man, he exclaims that he is "created" into another form. In the ancient context, he is referring, NOT to his spirit (which obviously did exist since it talked and communicated and did things), but he was re-created into a MAN. Enoch, in his vision of pre-creation heaven, relates seeing the spirits that have populated and will populate the earth during it’s existence :

The great scribe Enoch is commanded by the angel to :

In his vision the angel bids Enoch, “Come and I will show you the souls of the righteous who have already been created and have returned, and the souls of the righteous who have not yet been created.” After seeing various pre-existent souls, the ancient midrashic explanation is given us by himself Enoch regarding these many souls says :

The vast ascension literature, describes the pre-creation realm of spirits. Abraham, in his ascension Vision describes the unnumbered spirits he sees, many of whom are waiting to come into mortality. The angel says to Abraham :

The doctrine of pre-mortal existence of the spirits within men permeates the biblical text as well. A knowledge of this simple principle explains and underlying so many of the quotes in many other texts as well. In the Old testament it was said : “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (ecclesiates 12:7). This principle is mirrored in multiple other early Judao Christian texts as well : When God the Father commands the son to “Go, take the soul of my beloved Sedrach, and put it in Paradise.” The only begotten Son said to Sedrach, “give me that which our Father deposited in the womb of your mother in your holy dwelling place since you were born.” (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 9:1-2 and 5).
When the Son finally DOES take the Soul of the Mortal Sedrach, he simply takes it back to God “where it came from”. God’s statement to the prophet Sedrach is simply a rephrase of what God said in Old Testament Ecclesiastes 12:7...” and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.” This principle is repeated in this same ancient usage in many of the ancient sacred texts from the earliest periods.

“Jesus said, “Blessed are the solitary and elect, for you will find the Kingdom. For you are from it, and to it you will return.” (THE GOSPEL OF THOMAS v 49)

“Therefore, fear not death. For that which is from me, that is the soul, departs for heaven. That which is from the earth, that is the body, departs for the earth from which it was taken.” (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4)


The Early Christian usage of Ecclesiates 12:7 was used in this same way by the Apostle Peter as he explained to Clement that "This world was made so that the number of spirits predestined to come here when their number was full could receive their bodies and again be conducted back to the light." (Recognitions)


In this same ancient context, the question God asked Job; “Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?”; was NOT simply rhetorical, but it was a REMINDER :

"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Job 38:4-7)

In this early Judao-Christian context, Job KNEW the answer when God asked where Job was when God laid the foundations of the earth “and all the sons of God shouted for joy”. The texts are explicit that the spirits were taught regarding God’s plan to send the spirits of men to earth. They knew they would undergo a fall of Adam and Of the pre-mortal Redeemer. The savior describes this period of time to the ancient Prophet Seth when sons of God shouted for Joy. The redeemer said regarding this time period before creation in a assembly of jubilant spirits :

In explaining the relationship the pre-mortal realm of spirits, to the current time when individuals do as they please, unhampered (as it were), by a remembrance of pre-mortal relationships, the messiah remarked :

The early Christian doctrine of Pre-mortal existence removed arbitrariness out of the accusation that God himself created spirits unequally. IN this ancient model, the spirits are partly responsible for their own nature upon entering this life. Instead of arbitrarily creating spirits with defects (the very defects for which spirits may be punished for later), in this early christian context, the Lord creates the body in relationship to certain characteristics the spirit has already obtained (or did not obtain) in it’s heavenly abode over vast periods of time. For example, Napthali explains this to his sons from the testament literature :

In the context of the spirit of man existing long before other spirits, Jewish Haggadah relates that “Instead of being the last, man is really the first work of creation...With the soul of Adam the souls of all the generations of men were created. They are stored up in a promptuary, in the seventh of the heavens, whence they are drawn as they are needed for human body after human body.” The Haggadah (The Soul of Man)

This it the very same teaching the Apostle Peter taught the Christian convert Clement. The Apostle Peter tells the young christian convert Clement about the pre-earth council and man’s place within this plan : "which (plan) He [God the Father] of his own good pleasure announced in the presence of all the first angels which were assembled before Him. Last of all He made man whose real nature, however, is older and for whose sake all this was created." (Recognitions)

The principle that man’s spirit pre-exists the creation was one of the FIRST things the Apostle Peter teaches Clement. I believe there is a reason the Apostle Peter taught the principle of Pre-Existence to Clement at an early stage in Clements conversion to Christianity. Perhaps, for such theists, the key to understanding what God is doing with mankind is contained inside of the concept that we are eternally spiritual.

Many early Judao-Christian texts are quite explicit in explaining the doctrines underlying the New Testament Theology on this subject. For example : Speaking of the souls of men and the manner after which they are sent from their heavenly dwelling place to earth, the Haggadah relates :

Occasionally the spirit is reluctant to leave the untainted pre-mortal heaven for an earth where she knows her existence will be more difficult as she gains her moral education by coming to earth. In such accounts, God is NOT angry but the text says “ God consoles her. The text relates God telling the soul that

The entire chapter regarding the soul of man discussed in detail what happens with spirits before they enter the body and it relates their forgetting of their prior preparation and existence with God. (I might mention that souls anciently are all described in the female gender - like ships are - in modern parlance)


Such principles in the Haggadic text (which is related to the talmudic history) is mirrored in several other texts. For example, the Zohar confirms the doctrine as it relates essentially the same description. :

In very symbolic language, the Zohar relates the creation of the souls in heaven to the point that they become formed and cognizant and take on characteristics they will keep with them when they are placed into bodies at birth, even to the point of having gender. Speaking of these fully developed souls it says :

.
.
.
THE LOSS OF MANY EARLY DOCTRINES

The centuries following the death of Christ were described by a logia of Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas as follows :

This logia is one of many sad descriptions of the failed attempt to pass on the doctrines and traditions of the early Christianities to later generations, however, in the last days, when one looks inside of modern Christian Churches, one finds that much of the doctrinal substance that gave the early Church it’s value, is no longer to be found in it. The modern Christians have lost much of the precious knowledge for which the agnostics and philosophers have been clamoring and debating over for 1700 years. However, your habit of "creating doctrine by improvisation" is NOT going to improve upon the earliest doctrines, but instead will end up simply creating more problems than it solves

My post has EVERYTHING to do with your claim that “ At the moment of faith in Christ, God the Holy Spirit creates a human spirit and places it in the one who has believed.”

My post points out that the early Historical Judao-Christian belief was that the spirit of man existed BEFORE WE WERE BORN, and our spirits was placed into each of our bodies at that time, NOT “At the moment of faith in Christ” as per YOUR theory.


Clear
nedrviim

[Mike555]

Originally Posted by Clear lens

Mike555;

I am not trying to take the thread off topic. Think about my post as a response to YOUR claim (which was part OF a definition of rebirth).


As part of YOUR attempt to define the rebirth, YOU claimed that :
When Katiemygirl aske for you to “show me the scripture that says "At the moment of faith in Christ, God the Holy Spirit creates a human spirit and places it in the one who has believed." You responded with yet another group of claims :
My response referenced YOUR definition OF the spirit birth, specifically your claim regarding WHEN the spirit within mankind exists: thus my post reflected this :



My post has EVERYTHING to do with your claim that “ At the moment of faith in Christ, God the Holy Spirit creates a human spirit and places it in the one who has believed.”

My post points out that the early Historical Judao-Christian belief was that the spirit of man existed BEFORE WE WERE BORN, and our spirits was placed into each of our bodies at that time, NOT “At the moment of faith in Christ” as per YOUR theory.


Clear
nedrviim

And I told you that what matters is what the Bible teaches. The Bible does not teach that the spirit of man exists before he is born. I further told yoiu that the early church had heresies and differing beliefs just as the church today does.

And again, whether you like it or not, my answer to the other poster was to the point.

[Clear lens]

1) 1)

“And I told you that what matters is what the Bible teaches.” – mike555

Yes, it is important what the bible teaches. However I might remind you that you responded to the critics of your theory by offering “five different studies” , rather than the bible. IF the authors of your study used the bible to support their theories, so did the ancient Judao-Christians whom, as I’ve showed, believed quite differently.


If interactions and debates on the forum teach us anything, it’s that we all derive different meaning from the scriptures. We all read; and then we interpret; and then we develop systems of belief that we teach.


You described your personal theory : “At the moment of faith in Christ, God the Holy Spirit creates a human spirit and places it in the one who has believed.”


I described the ancient Judao-Christian theory : “All individuals have a human spirits in them from birth.”


The doctrine the earliest Judao-Christians believed in are not merely described in ancient biblical books such as enoch and ecclesiastes, Barnabas; hermas, etc, but also from the earliest Christian apocalypses; from the earliest Christian hymns; from mishnic materials and early Christian commentaries; from the earliest Christian sermons; from their novels and romance literature; from their earliest testaments; their wisdom literature and even earliest Christian diaries. For you to simply dismiss incredibly large amounts of profound historical material that disagrees with your personal theory as “heresy” is to allow a very small personal tail to wag an unimaginably large dog. To do so is a complete perversion of historical principles.



Once one takes those sorts of “short cuts”, then one loses the right to claim what is a historical “orthodoxy”. For example : The most ancient and well known (and quite orthodox) hymn among Christians was called “The Pearl”. The hymns text sings of a spirit who leaves the pre-creation home and comes to earth (which is represented by Babylon) to find a “pearl” and then , after acquiring the pearl, returns back to his heavenly home and is given the clothes of a prince by his father, the king.



Though you may believe differently then the ancient Christians ; (though I may believe differently) we still must allow the ancients, their beliefs AND, the early Christian belief regarding the existence of spirits in men before birth is one of the most orthodox and well attested doctrines of early Judao-Christianity as I have shown.


2) katiemygirl asked mike555 to “show me the scripture that says "At the moment of faith in Christ, God the Holy Spirit creates a human spirit and places it in the one who has believed.”

Mike555 replies “ whether you like it or not, my answer to the other poster was to the point.”


Mike, can you tell us what this scripture WAS, perhaps we simply missed it?

Clear lens
nesenert

[Jerwade]

Originally Posted by Clear lens

All individuals have a human spirit in them from birth.

"There is no life without water; and we all need the waters of life."

[katiemygirl]

Mike555;18744686]

You asked, 'Please show me the scripture that says "At the moment of faith in Christ, God the Holy Spirit creates a human spirit and places it in the one who has believed."

At the moment a person believes in Christ for salvation, the Holy Spirit creates a human spirit to which God the Father imputes His very own eternal life.

When God created Adam, He created him as a trichotomous being. Body, soul, and human spirit. When Adam sinned he died spiritually. He lost his human spirit and therefore, his relationship with God. Thereafter, when anyone is physically born, he is born as a dichotomous being. Body and soul. No human spirit. He is therefore born spiritually dead- separated from God. That is why man must be born again - regenerated. Regeneration refers to the spiritual rebirth which involves the restoration of a human spirit to the one who believes in Christ.

Now here are five different studies, with Scripture, which explain regeneration. The creation of a human spirit by the Holy Spirit.

Mike,

I agree that man must be born again - regenerated, and yes it is a spiritual regeneration.

However, it would have been much faster for you if you'd just given me the scripture that says ""At the moment of faith in Christ, God the Holy Spirit creates a human spirit and places it in the one who has believed."

I appreciate you copying the websites but I'd really prefer you just tell me what scripture says this. Studies by various people are nothing more than human opinions. They are not the words of inspired men. Frankly, I prefer to use the Bible to get my information.

Question Mike - Is the Kingdom here now? Is the church synonomous with the Kingdom? Didn't the Kingdom come with power on the day of Pentecost? Wasn't the church established on the day of Pentecost?

John 3:5 5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

Acts 2:41, 47

41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

47Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.


Were the people on the day of Pentecost not added to the church/Kingdom, and if so, how and when?

Katie

[katiemygirl]

Originally Posted by kids in america_

Water is used literally and figuratively throughout the entire ‘bible’. The word "water" at times spiritually signifies the word/ gospel. It seems Mike is just saying that is how the word “water” is being used in John 3:5. And I intend to agree with Mike.

1 Peter 1:22-23 alludes to this as well. And there we read that we’re "born again" by the word/ gospel of 'god'.

I totally disagree with Mike. That is his opinion. IMO, I believe water is referring to baptism.
Katie

[katiemygirl]

Originally Posted by Mike555

I did indeed answer her question. That you don't like the fact that I directed her to five different studies on the doctrine of regeneration as well as give a brief explanation is no concern of mine.

To look at those studies (which aren't mine) and then say that I improvised or made them up is asinine.

You should spend more time on the word of God under a knowledgeable pastor and a little less time on extra-Biblical studies. Only what is in the Bible is God-breathed. The early church had its heresies and varying beliefs just as the church today does.


And no, I do not create doctrine by improvisation. Everything that I post on this forum has been learned from knowledgeable pastor-teachers.

Do not take this thread off topic which has to do with the meaning of being born of water and of the Spirit.

No Mike, you did not answer my question. Instead, you posted links to a variety of studies. You completely ignored everything I wrote about the Kingdom, which is a part of John 3:5.

You made statements in your OP that I, and others, disagree with. Although I appreciate your intent, I would much prefer a straightforward, simple answer from you, and not have to read the studies of people who are not posting on this thread and are not inspired men.

I look forward to your answer.

Katie

[billb7581]

John 1:32 - when Jesus was baptized, He was baptized in the water and the Spirit, which descended upon Him in the form of a dove. The Holy Spirit and water are required for baptism. Also, Jesus’ baptism was not the Christian baptism He later instituted. Jesus’ baptism was instead a royal anointing of the Son of David (Jesus) conferred by a Levite (John the Baptist) to reveal Christ to Israel, as it was foreshadowed in 1 Kings 1:39 when the Son of David (Solomon) was anointed by the Levitical priest Zadok. See John 1:31; cf. Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:9; Luke 3:21.



John 3:3,5 - Jesus says, "Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." When Jesus said "water and the Spirit," He was referring to baptism (which requires the use of water, and the work of the Spirit).

John 3:22 - after teaching on baptism, John says Jesus and the disciples did what? They went into Judea where the disciples baptized. Jesus' teaching about being reborn by water and the Spirit is in the context of baptism.

John 4:1 - here is another reference to baptism which naturally flows from Jesus' baptismal teaching in John 3:3-5.


Acts 8:36 – the eunuch recognizes the necessity of water for his baptism. Water and baptism are never separated in the Scriptures.

Acts 10:47 - Peter says "can anyone forbid water for baptizing these people..?" The Bible always links water and baptism.

Acts 22:16 – Ananias tells Saul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins.” The “washing away” refers to water baptism.
Titus 3:5-6 – Paul writes about the “washing of regeneration,” which is “poured out on us” in reference to water baptism. “Washing” (loutron) generally refers to a ritual washing with water.

[katiemygirl]

Originally Posted by billb7581

John 1:32 - when Jesus was baptized, He was baptized in the water and the Spirit, which descended upon Him in the form of a dove. The Holy Spirit and water are required for baptism. Also, Jesus’ baptism was not the Christian baptism He later instituted. Jesus’ baptism was instead a royal anointing of the Son of David (Jesus) conferred by a Levite (John the Baptist) to reveal Christ to Israel, as it was foreshadowed in 1 Kings 1:39 when the Son of David (Solomon) was anointed by the Levitical priest Zadok. See John 1:31; cf. Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:9; Luke 3:21.



John 3:3,5 - Jesus says, "Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." When Jesus said "water and the Spirit," He was referring to baptism (which requires the use of water, and the work of the Spirit).

John 3:22 - after teaching on baptism, John says Jesus and the disciples did what? They went into Judea where the disciples baptized. Jesus' teaching about being reborn by water and the Spirit is in the context of baptism.

John 4:1 - here is another reference to baptism which naturally flows from Jesus' baptismal teaching in John 3:3-5.


Acts 8:36 – the eunuch recognizes the necessity of water for his baptism. Water and baptism are never separated in the Scriptures.

Acts 10:47 - Peter says "can anyone forbid water for baptizing these people..?" The Bible always links water and baptism.

Acts 22:16 – Ananias tells Saul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins.” The “washing away” refers to water baptism.
Titus 3:5-6 – Paul writes about the “washing of regeneration,” which is “poured out on us” in reference to water baptism. “Washing” (loutron) generally refers to a ritual washing with water.

Excellent Post! AMEN!!!!!