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Old 04-17-2011, 01:51 PM
 
Location: Coffee County, Alabama
289 posts, read 287,824 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Do you truly think that believers today cannot understand what the Bible teaches???

People's opinions are meaningless. Truth is what matters. Anyone who thinks that eternal salvation must involve a ritual just doesn't understand the grace of God.

I refer you back to post #112. You should read it carefully.

Did you not understand that in Peter's second sermon in Acts chapters 3 and 4 there were about 5000 people saved without having been water baptized???
Just because baptism is not mentioned doesn't mean it didn't take place. After all repetance and confessing the name of Jesus are not mentioned either, but I'm sure both of those took place, just as I'm sure baptism took place.
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Old 04-17-2011, 02:13 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,931 posts, read 26,160,446 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GREATDIVIDE46 View Post
Just because baptism is not mentioned doesn't mean it didn't take place. After all repetance and confessing the name of Jesus are not mentioned either, but I'm sure both of those took place, just as I'm sure baptism took place.
With reference to Acts chapter 3 and 4, Peter and John were arrested while giving their message and thrown into jail. There was no opportunity for anyone to be water baptized. There were about 5000 people who were saved that evening simply by believing the message that they had heard about Christ.

A ritual cannot result in eternal salvation. Only faith alone in Christ alone is acceptable to God for the purpose of receiving the gift of eternal life.
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Old 04-17-2011, 04:14 PM
 
63,461 posts, read 39,726,177 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
A ritual cannot result in eternal salvation. Only faith alone in Christ alone is acceptable to God for the purpose of receiving the gift of eternal life.
It is amazing how close you can come to being right and still be wrong, Mike. You really have to abandon the "precepts and doctrines of men" you are being influenced by and sincerely question what is in your heart. You are correct about rituals . . . but baptism is an ongoing occurrence once you have been "born of God" (gennao . . . spiritually conceived) . . . what you call spiritually maturing. We are continually "bathed" in the "water of life" surrounding our brain each time we exercise self-control over our baser instincts.
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Old 04-17-2011, 05:28 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,931 posts, read 26,160,446 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
It is amazing how close you can come to being right and still be wrong, Mike. You really have to abandon the "precepts and doctrines of men" you are being influenced by and sincerely question what is in your heart. You are correct about rituals . . . but baptism is an ongoing occurrence once you have been "born of God" (gennao . . . spiritually conceived) . . . what you call spiritually maturing. We are continually "bathed" in the "water of life" surrounding our brain each time we exercise self-control over our baser instincts.


Moderator cut: delete. John 7:38 ''He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water. '' 39] But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.''

According to you John 7:38 should read, ''He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his cranial cavity will flow rivers of cerebrospinal fluid.''

Rivers of living water in John 7:38 refers to the Holy Spirit. What Jesus was saying was that the one who believes in Him will have a continual source of satisfaction, which will provide life continually --John 4:14 'but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.'

When Jesus added 'As the Scripture said', He didn't identify the Old Testament passage(s) He had in mind, But He may have thought of Psalm 78:15,16 and Zechariah 14:8.

Psalm 78:15 'He split the rocks in the wilderness, And gave them abundant drink like the ocean depths. 16] He brought forth streams also from the rock, And caused waters to run down lke rivers.'

Zechariah 14:8 'And it will come about in that day that living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, Half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter' .

Compare with Revelation 22:1 'And He showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2] in the middle of its street. And on either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

John explained in [v39] that the 'living water' [v38] was the coming gift of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit within a believer satisfies his need for God, The Holy Spirit provides the believer with regeneration, guidance, and empowerment.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a one time event which occurs when a person believes in Christ. It is by means of the Holy Spirit that the church-age believer is permanently placed into an unbreakable union with Christ.

Moderator cut: delte

Last edited by Miss Blue; 04-17-2011 at 09:21 PM.. Reason: deleted the attacks
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Old 04-17-2011, 05:35 PM
 
9,653 posts, read 1,171,669 times
Reputation: 739
Quote:
Mike555 18762950] In Acts chapters 3 and 4 there were some five thousand men saved by believing what Peter said to them. They did not have a chance to be baptized in water because Peter and John were arrested and put in jail. In Acts 4:4 it says, 'But many of those who had heard the message believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand. And that was without being water baptized.
Mike, Where are you getting the idea that only the apostles could baptize? May I remind you that all christians are priests. Anyone can baptize, and I'm sure they did in both instances you mention. Just because Acts 3 and 4 do not tell us whether or not the people were baptized does not mean they weren't. Later in the book of Acts, we do see people being baptized.

Acts 8:12-13 tells us that once the people heard the good news about the Kingdom of God and the name of Jesus, they were baptized.

12 But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13 Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed.

Acts 16 tells us that Lydia and her household heard the word and were baptized.

And Paul, who you claim didn't think baptism was important, was told, "Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins." (Acts 22:16)

Has it ocurred to you that Luke when writing the book of Acts thought it redundant to repeat over and over the plan of salvation? God's plan for redemption is spread out all over the New Testament.

There are instances in Acts when we are told that people believed and were baptized. Does this mean they didn't have to confess Jesus as Lord?

So to say that the people in Acts 3 and 4 were not baptized because it wasn't important or necessary is a false conclusion based on the other passages listed above (and others not listed).

Quote:
Read 1 Corinthians 1:14-17 ''I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15] that no man should say you were baptized in my name. 16] Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17] For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, that the cross of Christ should not be made void. ''
Now, does that sound to you as if Paul thought that eternal salvation depended on a ritual???
Paul makes a distinction between the gospel and water baptism. In other words, water baptism is not a part of the Gospel. The gospel message is this:
You left out verse 10-13. Could you please explain what the context is in which Paul says, "I thank God I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius"?

10 I appeal to you, brothers,by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. 11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. 12 What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

I also think you fail to notice a very important point in this passage. Paul is speaking to a group of christians. They were all baptized!

Katie

Last edited by Miss Blue; 04-17-2011 at 06:48 PM.. Reason: sorry, red font is reserved for moderation..You may use any of the other colors though
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Old 04-17-2011, 05:41 PM
 
9,653 posts, read 1,171,669 times
Reputation: 739
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
With reference to Acts chapter 3 and 4, Peter and John were arrested while giving their message and thrown into jail. There was no opportunity for anyone to be water baptized. There were about 5000 people who were saved that evening simply by believing the message that they had heard about Christ.

A ritual cannot result in eternal salvation. Only faith alone in Christ alone is acceptable to God for the purpose of receiving the gift of eternal life.
You are truly misguided if you believe that only the apostles could do the baptizing. Any christian could baptize.

Katie
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Old 04-17-2011, 05:55 PM
 
9,653 posts, read 1,171,669 times
Reputation: 739
Quote:
Originally Posted by kids in america_ View Post
The disciples were still under the law of Moses (John’s baptism), until the spirit (real baptism) was given to them at Pentecost (Acts 2). I also want to note that Jesus Christ himself did not baptize anyone with typical water. And I wonder why.
Maybe He had bigger fish to fry. Ever think of that? Jesus was sent to preach the gospel of the Kingdom. That same Kingdom that we have to be born of water and Spirit to enter into. Baptizing was something Jesus' disciples could attend to. To minimize baptism because Jesus didn't personally baptize is ridiculous seeing that Jesus commanded the apostles to go into all the world and make disciples. How? By baptizing them. Jesus said, He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. Those are the words of Jesus. Are you sure you want to hold to the idea that baptism isn't important?
Katie
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Old 04-17-2011, 06:08 PM
 
9,653 posts, read 1,171,669 times
Reputation: 739
Quote:
Originally Posted by kids in america_ View Post
Question: Do you all believe a physical (of the flesh) baptism is a spiritual baptism?
1 Peter 3:21 describes a physical baptism in water.

Eight persons were brought safely through the water.
Baptism, which corresponds to this now saves you.

18For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience,through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

Titus says we are saved according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit. He says that being justified by His grace we become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


Titus 3:4-7
4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

So it is both physical and spiritual. We take care of the physical part, God takes care of the spiritual part.

Katie
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Old 04-17-2011, 06:41 PM
 
63,461 posts, read 39,726,177 times
Reputation: 7792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Moderator cut: orphanedbelieves in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water. '' 39] But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.''

According to you John 7:38 should read, ''He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his cranial cavity will flow rivers of cerebrospinal fluid.''

Rivers of living water in John 7:38 refers to the Holy Spirit. What Jesus was saying was that the one who believes in Him will have a continual source of satisfaction, which will provide life continually --John 4:14 'but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.'
.Moderator cut: deletequires some actual mechanism to deliver the effects expected. Every time we exercise self-control of our baser instincts the fluid around our brain is altered making it easier the next time. That is where our emotional maturity comes from. That is from our "innermost being"and is continually "becoming in Us," Mike. That is who and what we are . . . conscious spiritual beings developing in the womb of our brain. The evidence is conclusive regarding the fluid around the brain and our emotional maturity. You can keep thinking Jesus was talking about magic instead of reality . . . but I prefer reality.

Last edited by Miss Blue; 04-17-2011 at 09:23 PM.. Reason: deleted insult
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Old 04-17-2011, 07:19 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,931 posts, read 26,160,446 times
Reputation: 16087
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
You are truly misguided if you believe that only the apostles could do the baptizing. Any christian could baptize.

Katie
I was in the process of answering your later post, when I swapped over and saw this earlier post. Nowhere did I say that only an apostle can baptize. I do not like people putting words in my mouth.
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