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There is no clear instruction to baptize infants or not to baptize them in scripture. Infant Baptism is an inference drawn from the nature of Gods covenant(s) with man.
The OT teaches us that God made a covenant with Abraham and the sign of this covenant was circumcision. The NT speaks of an establishment of a new covenant mediated by Jesus Christ (Heb 8.) What we need to consider here the change in covenants and the sign of the New Covenant is Baptism. (Mt 28:19).
If you look at the progression of God's covenants in Scripture, you see that they gradually become more inclusive so it makes no sense for the sign to become more exclusive.
The earliest Christians baptized infants so we can draw the conclusion that this inference is correct.
Unless one understands that when Jesus said "Make disciples of all nations [how] baptizing" that infants would be considered part of "all nations"
or when Peter said in Acts 2:38-39
“Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christfor the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your childrenand for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call"
Last edited by twin.spin; 04-18-2011 at 07:56 PM..
"Just because we know He has promised to help us, both as we go through life and to attain salvation, I don't believe that gives us the right to sit back and let Him do what we are capable of doing for ourselves. I believe He expects 100% commitment from us, and that it is selfish and unreasonable for us to say, "I believe, Lord. Now you do the rest." I believe it's a false doctrine to think that our obedience means nothing to Him."
aka .... "Do all you can and God does the rest"
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LDS explanation of forgiveness:
Elder Dallin H. Oaks, p. 34
source: Ensign
"….a person who has repented of his sins will forsake them. Forsaking sins is more than resolving not to repeat them.
Forsaking involves a fundamental change in the individual. King Benjamin's congregation described that mighty change by saying that they had "no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually" (Mosiah 5:2).
Persons who have had that kind of change in their hearts have attained the strength and stauture to dwell with God. That is one definition of what we call being saved."
From the prophet and church president Spencer Kimbal:
To every forgiveness there is a condition. The plaster must be as wide as the sore. The fasting, the prayers, the humility must be equal to or greater than the sin. “ Teachings of Presidents of the Church, p. 38
"Your Heavenly Father has promised forgiveness upon total repentence and meeting all the requirements, but that forgiveness is not granted merely for the asking. There must be works – many works – and an all-out, total surrender, with a great humility and a ‘broken heart and contrite spirit’.
It depends upon you whether or not you are forgiven, and when. It could be weeks, it could be years, it could be centuries before that happy day when you have the positive assurance that the Lord has forgiven you. That depends on your humility, your sincerity, your works, your attitudes.”
The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 325
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Therefore anytime when any Mormon speaks of forgiveness, I expect that they agree with offical LDS stated positions from Ensign and church President Spencer.
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I'm not sure what you're getting at. You seem to think my beliefs are at odds with Dallin Oaks and Spencer W. Kimball. I agree with them wholeheartedly. You've obviously misunderstood either me or them if you think we disagree.
What you're saying doesn't make sense. If children do not have the capacity to understand sin and redemption, and will therefore go to Heaven, it sounds to me as if Heaven is truly the default. You're actually admitting that God would not send someone to Hell unless he was old enough to know that what he'd done was wrong and willfully rejected Christ's atonement on his behalf. Aren't you basically saying that a person has to be personally deserving of Hell in order to be sent there? How is Hell the default if it's contingent upon our having the ability to knowingly sin and be unwilling to repent and accept Christ's Atonement?
It sounds like you're saying that "hypothetically speaking" God will condemn us for what Adam did, but that "in reality" He is only going to condemn us for our own sins.
Katzpur,
What you are seeing is a "chi?k" in the armour of eternal torment theology. Orthodoxy would say that any non-believer deserves hell... except for the babies. Thus the doctrine of accountability is invented (something that is not in the bible anywhere). Most people's conscious cannot stomach the brutality of a baby or child being burned forever and ever... why their conscious doesn't kick in over great grandma being burned forever and ever - I don't know.
The fact is that this belief shows there are exceptions and undermines their whole concept of eternal torment.
YOU MUST HAVE FAITH OR YOU WILL BURN IN HELL! they say.
except for the babies...
and the mentally handicapped...
and maybe those who haven't heard will get a chance...
and etc.
why stop at babies? Surely great grandma deserves just as much to avoid hell than a cute little baby or even a precocious seven year old...
Of course I know you wouldn't deliberately misrepresent what I said! You're a good person, a believer in Jesus Christ, and that makes us Brothers in Christ and that's good enough for me. I look forward to meeting you in what's been called Reunion Square in heaven.
You'd be seen with a Mormon!
Quote:
And, yes, I would agree with your restatement of my comment.
Oh, no! Repentance is the first step in Salvation. Without repentance, there IS NO salvation! How can one come to understand his need for a Savior if he doesn't understand his own guilt?
Well then, it looks as if we're pretty much in agreement as to all points. Expressed differently perhaps, but not so very different at the core.
What you are seeing is a "chi?k" in the armour of eternal torment theology. Orthodoxy would say that any non-believer deserves hell... except for the babies. Thus the doctrine of accountability is invented (something that is not in the bible anywhere). Most people's conscious cannot stomach the brutality of a baby or child being burned forever and ever... why their conscious doesn't kick in over great grandma being burned forever and ever - I don't know.
The fact is that this belief shows there are exceptions and undermines their whole concept of eternal torment.
YOU MUST HAVE FAITH OR YOU WILL BURN IN HELL! they say.
except for the babies...
and the mentally handicapped...
and maybe those who haven't heard will get a chance...
and etc.
why stop at babies? Surely great grandma deserves just as much to avoid hell than a cute little baby or even a precocious seven year old...
LOL! I liked your post, legoman. Maybe that's because I have a real tenderness for the elderly. I do think you're onto something, though. The bottom line is that God is both merciful and just. It would not be just for God to be merciful to some and not to others. Obviously, you and I do not see eye-to-eye as to how and when grandma is going to come to a realization of the blessing Christ's Atonement can be in her life, but at least we agree that He loves old people every bit as much as He does babies and that he wants us all back.
LOL! I liked your post, legoman. Maybe that's because I have a real tenderness for the elderly. I do think you're onto something, though. The bottom line is that God is both merciful and just. It would not be just for God to be merciful to some and not to others. Obviously, you and I do not see eye-to-eye as to how and when grandma is going to come to a realization of the blessing Christ's Atonement can be in her life, but at least we agree that He loves old people every bit as much as He does babies and that he wants us all back.
Thanks Katzpur What gets me is the people who have no qualms about suggesting great grandma is burning forever think it is barbaric and unmerciful to suggest that babies would be burning forever. As if burning great grandma forever would not be barbaric and unmerciful!
... But I'm not sure why you think there is disagreement between us though on when great grandma is going to come to Christ? You do believe 99.9999% will be saved, right? You can DM if you want.
... But I'm not sure why you think there is disagreement between us though on when great grandma is going to come to Christ? You do believe 99.9999% will be saved, right? You can DM if you want.
No, I don't want to DM you. I'd prefer to just post on the thread. I have to stop posting right now, but I'll explain either later tonight or tomorrow morning.
The first time I went to a C-tholic church (age 12) I had a gut instinct that something wasn't right. I felt like I was in a cult. I have never understood how so many people grasp onto this religion when it is all about following rituals and doing the same traditions over and over again. They repeat the same prayers and they go through all the "steps", and that somehow makes them saved..But really, these are all just distractions from the ONE true way (having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ). . Also, where in the Bible does it say to PRAY to Mary???
I'm sorry, but I'm just not a big advocate on religion-period.
I have accepted Jesus as my Savior and I ask him everyday to help me be more like Him and to forgive my natural human, sinful ways. I KNOW 100% I will be with my Father one sweet day
Psalm 51:5 . Original sin was meant to be understood.
And since you reject the teaching of being conceived a sinner....then you can't duck the responsibility to give it your 100%. With forgiveness based on total abandonment of sin, then you'd better not have baby or attempt to have one.
Being that you openly admit that forgiveness of sin is conditional based on the total abandonment of it then explain just what is the reasonable 100% expectations that God has in Psalm 51:5 ?
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As if burning great grandma forever would not be barbaric and unmerciful!
