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Old 04-18-2011, 08:44 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Thank you, .sparrow. I really appreciate the input from you. And I'm always happy to find common ground with a fellow Christian.
Same here. I was smiling the whole time I read your replies. It does feel really good to be united over beliefs. (It seems so often that the opposite is taking place... lol. edited to add: not with YOU, I mean just in general. You know what I mean...! lol.)
Peace to ya Kat,
sparrow
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Old 04-18-2011, 09:52 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
But I'm not sure why you think there is disagreement between us though on when great grandma is going to come to Christ? You do believe 99.9999% will be saved, right?
I hope you don't mind my answering this question on a different thread than where you asked it, legoman. We were kind of discussing the same topic on two different threads, and I felt it was a better fit over here.

I don't believe in a "soul sleep" which clarification should probably explain a lot. I believe that when the spirit leaves the body, the body ceases to be "a living soul." It is nothing but an empty shell at that point. The spirit, I believe, continues to exist as a cognizant entity, fully conscious and fully alive. As to exactly where it exists, I couldn't say with any certainty, but I believe there to be an intermediate realm between life on earth and life in heaven. For those who have already heard and accepted the Gospel of Jesus Christ, this intermediate realm will be paradise (aka "Abraham's bosom"). It will be a place of joy, peace and rest. For the unrepentant wicked and for those who have not accepted the Good News, it will be a place of torment and anguish. They will be keenly aware of their sins and will be dreading the day when they will be called to stand before God to give an accounting of their life. Much as .sparrow. explained, I believe that those in paradise will be sharing the gospel with their brothers and sisters (and great grandmas ) and helping them to come to a realization that all is not lost. As those who are tormented by their sins come to hear and understand the gospel, they can still repent of their sins and rejoice in the knowledge that their Father in Heaven has provided a means for them to be saved. Once they have done so, their wait for the resurrection will also be spent in a state of happiness. So I don't believe that accepting Christ will come at the moment they stand before God to be judged, but as they come to hear the message that the believers share with them, embrace it and repent of their sins, knowing that they, too, can be forgiven.
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Old 04-18-2011, 10:00 PM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,907,042 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I hope you don't mind my answering this question on a different thread than where you asked it, legoman. We were kind of discussing the same topic on two different threads, and I felt it was a better fit over here.
NO problem.

Quote:
I don't believe in a "soul sleep" which clarification should probably explain a lot. I believe that when the spirit leaves the body, the body ceases to be "a living soul." It is nothing but an empty shell at that point. The spirit, I believe, continues to exist as a cognizant entity, fully conscious and fully alive. As to exactly where it exists, I couldn't say with any certainty, but I believe there to be an intermediate realm between life on earth and life in heaven. For those who have already heard and accepted the Gospel of Jesus Christ, this intermediate realm will be paradise (aka "Abraham's bosom"). It will be a place of joy, peace and rest. For the unrepentant wicked and for those who have not accepted the Good News, it will be a place of torment and anguish. They will be keenly aware of their sins and will be dreading the day when they will be called to stand before God to give an accounting of their life.
I believe Abraham's bosom, "paradise" is not a real place- this is just based on the parable Jesus spoke, these are symbols of something else. Just how I see it, and that is another whole topic we could get into.

Quote:
Much as .sparrow. explained, I believe that those in paradise will be sharing the gospel with their brothers and sisters (and great grandmas ) and helping them to come to a realization that all is not lost. As those who are tormented by their sins come to hear and understand the gospel, they can still repent of their sins and rejoice in the knowledge that their Father in Heaven has provided a means for them to be saved. Once they have done so, their wait for the resurrection will also be spent in a state of happiness. So I don't believe that accepting Christ will come at the moment they stand before God to be judged, but as they come to hear the message that the believers share with them, embrace it and repent of their sins, knowing that they, too, can be forgiven.
I can pretty much agree with you on this point as a possiblity. The timing and details of it all are TBD IMHO but I can see this type of scenario happening (that's what I sort of explained above, but it was probably not clear). So I guess I see this same type of scenario even within the possibility of soul sleep.
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Old 04-18-2011, 10:05 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
14,064 posts, read 9,864,780 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
I believe Abraham's bosom, "paradise" is not a real place- this is just based on the parable Jesus spoke, these are symbols of something else. Just how I see it, and that is another whole topic we could get into.
I have heard it described as a parable, and I can understand that interpretation. Still, parables do teach actual truths, so at some point you have to say, "What is this parable trying to tell me?"

Quote:
I can pretty much agree with you on this point as a possiblity. The timing and details of it all are TBD IMHO but I can see this type of scenario happening (that's what I sort of explained above, but it was probably not clear). So I guess I see this same type of scenario even within the possibility of soul sleep.
Actually, I think I could use a few winks of "soul sleep" somewhere along the way.
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Old 04-18-2011, 10:47 PM
 
Location: Tucson, Arizona
953 posts, read 469,556 times
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I find myself agreeing with Legoman here
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Old 04-18-2011, 11:08 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,966 posts, read 2,952,242 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Depends what you mean by reward. In the end we will all be all in all. I don't see "eternal" rewards fitting in here, as if some people could hold some kind of a "better class" status above the rest. Or like some people get to wear a cool gold crown while others don't? All seems kind of petty - doesn't seem right.

I think the rewards spoken of in general is the privilege in being part of the first resurrection. Specifically what will they be doing? Having an exclusive party for 1000 years? I don't think that is the reward.

I think the reward is that they will get to help bring the rest of mankind to Christ. They get to bring in the harvest. And the harvest is going to be big! But there are only a few workers. Imagine how rewarding it would be to be one of those few to share and teach the knowledge of Christ's love.

This is how the "few" and the "many" fit in. The called and the chosen. Its only the chosen few that will be rewarded with helping to bring in the rest.
If only we constantly focused on how glorious God's love toward us is, we would not waste our time bickering over doctrines. When we bicker over things, we are forfeiting the joy of our salvation. We HAVE eternal life, NOW. We are not waiting for it -- we already have it. Why not celebrate the fact every hour until all have joined in the heavenly chorus of praise!

From Hebrews 12:12-13
We must focus on Jesus, the source and goal of our faith. He saw the joy ahead of him, so he endured death on the cross and ignored the disgrace it brought him. Then he received the highest position in heaven, the one next to the throne of God. Think about Jesus, who endured opposition from sinners, so that you don't become tired and give up.-

From Ephesians chapter 1:3-23
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your love for all the saints, do not cease giving thanks for you, while making mention of you in my prayers; that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him. I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
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Old 04-19-2011, 09:26 AM
 
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If the person growing up in a fundamentalist Islamic state is not pre-chosen by God to be believing, it is possible he may have to wait to be saved at the conclusion of the eons.

When that occurs, death will be abolished, the person will be made alive (vivified), and God will be All in all that person.
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Old 04-19-2011, 09:29 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I have heard it described as a parable, and I can understand that interpretation. Still, parables do teach actual truths, so at some point you have to say, "What is this parable trying to tell me?"

Actually, I think I could use a few winks of "soul sleep" somewhere along the way.
The parable would tell me the man dressed in rich purple robes are the Pharisees, who, even though One rose from the dead would not believe. But why would they not believe though One rose from the dead? "God hides these things from the wise and prudent and reveals them to minors."
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Old 04-19-2011, 09:55 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
14,064 posts, read 9,864,780 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
If the person growing up in a fundamentalist Islamic state is not pre-chosen by God to be believing, it is possible he may have to wait to be saved at the conclusion of the eons.

When that occurs, death will be abolished, the person will be made alive (vivified), and God will be All in all that person.
I'm sorry, but I'm trying to make sense out of what you're saying. I guess it's that some of your terminology isn't all that familiar to me. Two questions: (1) Are you saying that God chooses some of us to believe and some of us not to believe and doesn't give us a choice? (2) When the person you believe God didn't "pre-choose" dies, I'm assuming he ends up being reconciled to God eventually. But how do you believe this actually happens?
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Old 04-19-2011, 12:18 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 3,443,604 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
This thread is for Christians who believe that all (or very close to all) will eventually come to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior. As many of you know, I have referred to myself as being almost universalist in my perspective. I have even gone so far as to throw out a percentage -- off the top of my head, merely to illustrate my point -- and have said that I believe that roughtly 99.9999% of all human beings who have ever been born will end up being reconciled to God when all is said and done. The thing is, my religion has a specific doctrine that explains how this is going to come to be. To the best of my knowledge, most people who believe this will happen don't have any firm beliefs in place as to how or when this will be accomplished. As an example only, let's say there is a person growing up in a fundamentalist Islamic state today. The only thing he knows about Christianity is from a skewed point of view. He has been taught all his life that Islam is true and Christianity is false. If this person were to die today, how and when do you believe he would come to accept Christ?

For me I believe it is a good and valid question but impossible to answer in any detail. I also do not think it is necessary that the how and when be answered in order for it to be true. In matters of faith, that is where things rest. The need to know how and when is what can lead a person of faith to believe a lie when someone comes a long with reasoning that "tickles the ears". This is one reason such nonsense in end times theology in Christianity exists. Not only are people not excersizing faith, they relish the need for an explaination of how and when and many times they want to be the one posessing that knowledge. It has gotten to the point where that desire is so strong that people will continue to get their ears tickled by so called ministers that have been wrong on every count concerning that.

But I digress in making that point.

As far back as I can remember I have believed that something exists that is good and greater than me or anyone else. I cannot prove it, I cannot explain for the most part why I believe it. It is just one of those things that I cannot "unbelieve".

From my Christian upbringing, I can only say that I associate that belief with the Christian bible, I do not make that association with any doctrine or denomination, I only make that association with what I am directly familiar with.

You bring up a good point. I was not raised, buddist, muslin, atheist, etc etc, I was raised Christian. However I have jumped out of that box and contemplated the thought concerning the realities of life.

It is a reality that billions of people (maybe even more) in the span of humanity have been born, lived, and died without any particular belief or exposure to what as an english speaking person living in America would call "Jesus Christ".

This raises a valid question concerning their fate. The facts that I can demonstrate are as follows.

1. I did not choose to be born in a Christian based environment.
2. Many did not choose to be born in an environment where they would never have any exposure to that Christian environment asserted to be the only way to be saved.
3. No one spiritual belief can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be true. It only can be claimed and believed as true. Some point of view may indeed be true, but belief and faith inherantly does not empower the truth.

So as a result of realizing what cannot be proven or demonstrated I had to contemplate what the nature of faith and truth actually is.

So after directly confronting all those questions and people who believe that humanity must be exposed to the Christian paradigm to be saved and those who make some kind of indirect association to a verse in scripture and assert that all those people I mentioned before somehow have no excuse it has been revealed to me what faith in God actually is.

It is a faith going clear back to my childhood in something that is greater than all of us that corrects all that is wrong.

I cannot tell you how it will happen nor can I tell you when, it is not important that I do, it is simply a faith I am going to carry despite that.
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