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Old 04-18-2011, 03:00 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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This thread is for Christians who believe that all (or very close to all) will eventually come to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior. As many of you know, I have referred to myself as being almost universalist in my perspective. I have even gone so far as to throw out a percentage -- off the top of my head, merely to illustrate my point -- and have said that I believe that roughtly 99.9999% of all human beings who have ever been born will end up being reconciled to God when all is said and done. The thing is, my religion has a specific doctrine that explains how this is going to come to be. To the best of my knowledge, most people who believe this will happen don't have any firm beliefs in place as to how or when this will be accomplished. As an example only, let's say there is a person growing up in a fundamentalist Islamic state today. The only thing he knows about Christianity is from a skewed point of view. He has been taught all his life that Islam is true and Christianity is false. If this person were to die today, how and when do you believe he would come to accept Christ?

Last edited by Katzpur; 04-18-2011 at 03:47 PM.. Reason: deleted the first paragraph fas it is a flame and would close this thread quickly
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Old 04-18-2011, 03:06 PM
 
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All will realize when they are standing face to face, would they not? I don't think we know the specifics though (ie. timing, where, how, etc).

In the end every knee will bow and every tongue confess and swear allegiance to Him.
All the families of the earth will turn back to Him.
All the peoples of the earth will be blessed through the seed of Abraham.
All will praise and worship Christ.
All will be made righteous through Christ.
All will be made alive by Christ.
Death will be defeated.
And God will ultimately be all in all.

Good news - great joy - for all people.
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Old 04-18-2011, 03:15 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
20,572 posts, read 20,236,436 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
All will realize when they are standing face to face, would they not? I don't think we know the specifics though (ie. timing, where, how, etc).

In the end every knee will bow and every tongue confess and swear allegiance to Him.
All the families of the earth will turn back to Him.
All the peoples of the earth will be blessed through the seed of Abraham.
All will praise and worship Christ.
All will be made righteous through Christ.
All will be made alive by Christ.
Death will be defeated.
And God will ultimately be all in all.

Good news - great joy - for all people.
Thanks, legoman. So, I'm assuming you believe that there will be a "Last Judgment." Correct me if I'm wrong about that. If an unbeliever were to die tomorrow, and the Last Judgment were not to take place until the end of the Millennium (as I believe Revelation says will be the case), what do you believe will be the status or situation that person will find himself in between when he dies and when he is judged? Will he be in a state of unconsciousness or sleep? Will he be in Heaven? What are your feelings?
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Old 04-18-2011, 03:22 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Thanks, legoman. So, I'm assuming you believe that there will be a "Last Judgment." Correct me if I'm wrong about that. If an unbeliever were to die tomorrow, and the Last Judgment were not to take place until the end of the Millennium (as I believe Revelation says will be the case), what do you believe will be the status or situation that person will find himself in between when he dies and when he is judged? Will he be in a state of unconsciousness or sleep? Will he be in Heaven? What are your feelings?
Yes I believe there is a great white throne judgment.

I believe when someone dies, they are dead - unconscious, like "sleep", buried in the grave.

But there is the resurrection - two in fact: the resurrection of the "just" and the resurrection of the "unjust". All will be made alive (resurrected) - but not all at the same time - each in their own order.

So it is possible that during the millenium only the just has been raised and the unjust are still waiting to be resurrected.
IMHO I believe this is speculation though, as it is difficult to interpret Revelations literally. I can see aspects of Revelation as applying now in the life of each person. Is, was, and will be.

There are different schools of thought on this. I don't concern myself with it too much, but I'm quite certain that when you die you are dead, unconscious, unaware. And when you are resurrected it will seem from your perspective as if no time has passed.
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Old 04-18-2011, 03:28 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
20,572 posts, read 20,236,436 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
I believe when someone dies, they are dead - unconscious, like "sleep", buried in the grave.

But there is the resurrection - two in fact: the resurrection of the "just" and the resurrection of the "unjust". All will be made alive (resurrected) - but not all at the same time - each in their own order.

So it is possible that during the millenium only the just has been raised and the unjust are still waiting to be resurrected.
IMHO I believe this is speculation though, as it is difficult to interpret Revelations literally. I can see aspects of Revelation as applying now in the life of each person. Is, was, and will be.

There are different schools of thought on this. I don't concern myself with it too much, but I'm quite certain that when you die you are dead, unconscious, unaware. And when you are resurrected it will seem from your perspective as if no time has passed.
Fair enough. So would you say that you believe that when the "unjust" stand before God to be judged, this is when they will come to realize that Jesus Christ died for them? If this is the case, will the "just" receive any greater reward for their faithfulness and obedience than the "unjust," who simply could not deny Christ once they stood facing Him?
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Old 04-18-2011, 03:36 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Fair enough. So would you say that you believe that when the "unjust" stand before God to be judged, this is when they will come to realize that Jesus Christ died for them?
Most likely.

This could happen in this lifetime for some, you realize. It could happen in different ways than we traditionally understand. Its not necessarily standing in front of a literal great white throne.

Quote:
If this is the case, will the "just" receive any greater reward for their faithfulness and obedience than the "unjust," who simply could not deny Christ once they stood facing Him?
Depends what you mean by reward. In the end we will all be all in all. I don't see "eternal" rewards fitting in here, as if some people could hold some kind of a "better class" status above the rest. Or like some people get to wear a cool gold crown while others don't? All seems kind of petty - doesn't seem right.

I think the rewards spoken of in general is the privilege in being part of the first resurrection. Specifically what will they be doing? Having an exclusive party for 1000 years? I don't think that is the reward.

I think the reward is that they will get to help bring the rest of mankind to Christ. They get to bring in the harvest. And the harvest is going to be big! But there are only a few workers. Imagine how rewarding it would be to be one of those few to share and teach the knowledge of Christ's love.

This is how the "few" and the "many" fit in. The called and the chosen. Its only the chosen few that will be rewarded with helping to bring in the rest.
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Old 04-18-2011, 03:43 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Thanks, legoman. I appreciate your input. I have just one more question for you. When a loved one dies, do you think of that person as being unconscious right now? I know I've heard a lot of people say, "He's in Heaven," or "He's with the Lord." I'm assuming from what you're saying that you don't believe that to be the case.
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Old 04-18-2011, 07:10 PM
 
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I just tend to think most people are only speculating on how things will happen or unfold. But that is just an opinion. I feel I'm looking through the glass darkly when it comes to this issue.

For me, I will say that I don't need a specific timeline of events in order to believe that all people, (100%) are part of God's plan and that all lives are crucial to the whole. I don't see this life or existence as black and white. I see this life as a journey that we are all on for a reason and we're all in it together helping the journey along.

unjust and just.. I do tend to see that as not separate groups of people. I see it as what is within us that is unjust and what is within us that is just. (or love and non-love). I definitely expect to go through more "fire" after my life is complete so that I will continue to learn and understand the way things really are. To understand truth.

And also, if things do unfold the way some think it will, I certainly do NOT believe there will be all these people running around with a "I believed in Jesus" button on their shirts "reigning" . I think it will be the people who followed the path of LOVE (God IS Love) during their life, whether or not they connected that path to God or not. They will be the ones (people from ALL walks of life) reigning and by reigning, I mean it will be by HELPING AND SERVING others by showing their love to them and helping them to understand that love is real. God is love. That GOD IS REAL.
Many are doing that as we speak already.


I guess I just don't see it as everyone else sees it. I don't know.

And I also don't believe in "soul sleep". It's a possibility, sure. Anything is possible. But it has been my personal experiences that have drawn me over to the side that sees the spirit as continuing to exist beyond death and doesn't "sleep". There are many mysteries and I am content that some cannot be shown for what they are until the time is right. I still continue to seek no matter what though.

peace... I hope this kind of answered your questions as far as my own personal beliefs.. not sure if it did or not. Well, actually I guess it did.
I suppose I confirmed for you, (at least for one person who believes in UR) that I don't have a firm set of beliefs about timing, etc. (I should say "yet?" because I don't know what lays on the journey ahead... or what will unfold for me.) I'm totally open. Having said that, I know nothing can take away my belief that all are reconciled. It's intertwined through my spirit and is there for good. It only grows more beautiful and more powerful as time goes on and it's a power that keeps assisting my heart to expand. And that is the most awesome thing that has ever occurred in my life.
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Old 04-18-2011, 07:20 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
20,572 posts, read 20,236,436 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow. View Post
For me, I will say that I don't need a specific timeline of events in order to believe that all people, (100%) are part of God's plan and that all lives are crucial to the whole. I don't see this life or existence as black and white. I see this life as a journey that we are all on for a reason and we're all in it together helping the journey along.
It sounds like you're saying that you don't see the final curtain as falling when a person dies. If that's what you're saying, I agree.

Quote:
unjust and just.. I do tend to see that as not separate groups of people. I see it as what is within us that is unjust and what is within us that is just. (or love and non-love). I definitely expect to go through more "fire" after my life is complete so that I will continue to learn and understand the way things really are. To understand truth.
I could not possibly agree more.

Quote:
And also, if things do unfold the way some think it will, I certainly do NOT believe there will be all these people running around with a "I believed in Jesus" button on their shirts "reigning" . I think it will be the people who followed the path of LOVE (God IS Love) during their life, whether or not they connected that path to God or not. They will be the ones (people from ALL walks of life) reigning and by reigning, I mean it will be by HELPING AND SERVING others by showing their love to them and helping them to understand that love is real. God is love. That GOD IS REAL.
That's pretty much what I believe. I believe that those who have already come to an understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ helping those who haven't done so understand it too.

Quote:
Many are doing that as we speak already.
Watch out! You're sounding kind of Mormon there.

Quote:
I guess I just don't see it as everyone else sees it. I don't know.
I think you and I see it quite similarly. Of course my beliefs are tied specifically to my Church's doctrines and yours are tied to what the spirit seems to have testified to you, but we do seem to pretty much agree.

Quote:
And I also don't believe in "soul sleep". It's a possibility, sure. Anything is possible. But it has been my personal experiences that have drawn me over to the side that sees the spirit as continuing to exist beyond death and doesn't "sleep". There are many mysteries and I am content that some cannot be shown for what they are until the time is right. I still continue to seek no matter what though.
I don't believe in "soul sleep" either. I believe that when the spirit leaves the body at death, it continues to exist and to be just as real and alive as it was when it inhabited the body.

Quote:
peace... I hope this kind of answered your questions as far as my own personal beliefs.. not sure if it did or not. Well, actually I guess it did.
I suppose I confirmed for you, (at lease for one person who believes in UR) that I don't have a firm set of beliefs about timing, etc.
Thank you, .sparrow. I really appreciate the input from you. And I'm always happy to find common ground with a fellow Christian.
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Old 04-18-2011, 07:41 PM
 
6,220 posts, read 6,300,681 times
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Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Thanks, legoman. I appreciate your input. I have just one more question for you. When a loved one dies, do you think of that person as being unconscious right now? I know I've heard a lot of people say, "He's in Heaven," or "He's with the Lord." I'm assuming from what you're saying that you don't believe that to be the case.
Yes I would say they are unconscious. Personally I find that more peaceful than having them waiting in heaven for a body or in some other place.

But I see what you and sparrow are saying - if I am wrong on this it doesn't bother me either way, I don't have a big issue with it, its just how I see it in scripture right now.

I actually always found it a bit odd that our dead relatives would be watching over us - sort of more like they are spying on us! lol

The fact of the matter is we don't really know for sure one way or the other. And yes people say "He's in Heaven" or "He's with the Lord" and I believe that is true in either sense (abstractly speaking). This brings comfort to people and I have no problem with those ideas. And for that matter time itself may not exist as we know it or it may be another dimension on the other side, so the whole issue of soul sleep may be moot if time ceases at death. It may be that you die and then wake up immediately in another dimension. We can't understand it fully right now IMHO.
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