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Sorry kids, but when you address Acts 22:16 and Paul's baptism to wash away his sin, I'll address your post.
I didn’t address the rest of your post because you were arguing a straw man. You assume what my position is on ‘salvation’ just because I stand opposed to water baptism. And I like to say that Paul and the apostles themselves did baptize with water like John, but as they grew in understanding they stopped (e.g. 1Co 1:17).
If you read the epistles without any preconceived notions , you will begin to see what true baptism is.
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Originally Posted by katiemygirl
Acts 2:38 distinguishes John's baptism and christian baptism - obedient believers receive the Holy Spirit. Major difference! That's the contrast John is making.
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Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, [baptisms] and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Heb 10:1 For the law [and all its divers washings/baptisms] having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Matthew 3:2 Repent the kingdom is near
Matthew 4:17 Repent the Kingdom of heaven is near ( Jesus speaking)
Mark 6:12 People should repent
Luke 13:3 Unless you repent, you will perish ( Jesus speaking )
Acts 2:38 Repent and be baptized
Acts 3:19 Repent and turn to God
Acts 17:30 God commands all people to repent
Acts 26:20 People should repent and turn to God
Matthew 3:8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance
Mark 1:4 John came preaching repentance
Luke 5:32 I call sinners to repentance ( Jesus speaking )
Luke 24:47 Preach repentance beginning at Jerusalem(Jesus Speaking)
Acts 5:31 that God might give repentance and forgiveness of sins.
Acts 20:21 Turn to God in repentance
Acts 26:20 Prove their repentance by their deeds
Romans 2:4 God's kindness leads you toward repentance
2Cor.7:10 Godly sorrow brings repentance.
2Peter 3:9 The Lord is waiting for everyone to come to repentance
Romans 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to faith among all nations, for his name.
5Through whom. Through Jesus Christ, who is the subject spoken of .We have received- Paul refers to himself, and perhaps the other apostles.Grace. The grace, the favor and mercy of heaven granted to all saints. Apostleship . All saints were not apostles , but one must be a saint to be an apostle. Without the general grace he could not have the special gift of apostleship. For obedience to faith . the apostleship was given in order to lead all nations to obedience to the faith. The faith is a synonym for the gospel .( Observe that it is a system of obedience. In the apostolic age there were no recognized believers but obedient believers )
And you people all continue to skirt Acts 2:38 -
Peter replied " Repent and be baptized everyone of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins. And receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Day of Pentecost was the start of the church the way to become a member was acts 2:38
The Old covenant was entered by a birth of flesh . The New covenant is entered by a birth of water and spirit.
If the two are identical, why did Jesus deny membership in the second to the Jews? They were all members of the first .
Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit -just as you wee called to one hope when you were called-5one Lord, one faith , one baptism: 6 One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all in all.
What one baptism is Paul talking about ?
Has to be Matthew 18:19 and Acts 2:38 - Because this is the only one man can do.
There is only one place in the entire Bible where the phrase Faith alone is found . James 2:24 A person is not saved by Faith alone .
It is Faith that causes one to respond to the Gospel
it is Faith in God's word
It is Faith that causes one to repent
It is Faith the draws one to baptism
Because of these facts, we can say we are saved by Faith. Faith is the catalyst to our response in repentance and baptism.
Show me chapter and verse the Sinners prayer
Show me chapter and verse in which Faith and prayer are joined for salvation
Show me chapter and verse in which repentance and prayer are joined for salvation
Show me chapter and verse when the blood of Christ is applied for our sins.
Then tell me why Jesus said this - Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved , but whoever dose not believe will be condemned.
Acts 2:38 Peter replied " Repent and be baptized everyone of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
A few points:
1.) James chapter 2 says "faith without works is dead."
2.) Ephesians 2 says "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast."
3.) Setting the words of two apostles against each other is idiotic. James vs Paul = Your doing it wrong!!
4.) The only sane approach is: Paul + James = The whole truth.
Conclusion:
-- If your belief in God does not lead to good works then what you have isn't faith. You have something else and that something is useless. "Empty belief" is a good word for it.
-- Works that are not accompanied by belief and trust in God are likewise useless. You can't save yourself.
-- Ultimately only Christ can save us, conditional on actual faith and not empty belief.
Eternal salvation is as simple as believing in Christ. Placing your faith in Christ. Not faith plus anything added to faith. Eternal salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone (Ephesians 2:8-9). Anything added to faith alone in the belief that it is required for eternal salvation is legalism. A self-righteous intrusion upon the grace of God.
What does it mean to believe? The word 'believe' is translated from the Greek word 'Pisteuo'.
HELPS Word-studies gives this definition...
4100 pisteúō (from 4102 /pÃstis, "faith," derived from 3982 /peÃthō, "persuade, be persuaded") – believe (affirm, have confidence); used of persuading oneself (= human believing) and with the sacred significance of being persuaded by the Lord (= faith-believing). Only the context indicates whether 4100 /pisteúō ("believe") is self-serving (without sacred meaning), or the believing that leads to/proceeds from God's inbirthing of faith. 4100. ??????? (pisteuó) -- to believe, entrust
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance defines it as follows...
believe, put in trust with.
From pistis; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. Credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ) -- believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with. 4100. ??????? (pisteuó) -- to believe, entrust
To believe in Christ means to be persuaded that He is who He says He is and to put your trust in Him to provide eternal salvation. It does not imply obedience, except the obedience to the Gospel which is simply to believe what it says about Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8 'dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.'
How many times is the word 'believe' - 'Pisteuo' found in the New Testament? According to the following site: Pisteuo - Greek Lexicon and not including variations such as 'Pistis' - 'faith', the word 'believe' - 'Pisteuo' is found...
9 times in Matthew 14 times in Mark 9 times in Luke 85 times in John 36 times in Acts 20 times in Romans 8 times in 1 Corinthians 1 time in 2 Corinthians 4 times in Galatians 2 times in Ephesians 1 time in Philippians 5 times in 1 Thessalonians 3 times in 2 Thessalonians 3 times in 1 Timothy 1 time in 2 Timothy 2 times in Titus 2 times in Hebrews 2 times in James 3 times in Peter 7 times in 1 John 1 time in Jude
Obedience is not a part of Positional Sanctification.
Obedience belongs to Experiential Sanctification - the believers spiritual growth after having been eternally saved through faith alone in Christ alone.
"Say" you believe without obedience all you want...Satan believes in this same manner of belief way more than you do...and God calls him wicked and evil.
Faith was accounted unto Abraham as righteousness...why? because he obeyed God. Without the obedience, your faith is nothing to God, and don't you forget it.
You teach a false gospel Mike, and this is not good for you as much as I know you want to be right in your assumptions concerning salvation...but what you teach does not line up with the Word of God...so one of you are wrong...and I bet my life it isn't God.
Scripture proves you wrong time and time again...the Holy Book is filled to overflowing with His truth concerning faith and obedience...filled to overflowing. Take some time off and just read the holy Scriptures for yourself without listening to other man's teachings...try to listen to God instead...lay all your preconceived ideas (if that is possible) behind you and study for yourself...to show yourself approved...and you will see and understand His truth much differently. I pray for you that this day, this season, will come for you.
kids in america_;18862386]I didn’t address the rest of your post because you were arguing a straw man. You assume what my position is on ‘salvation’ just because I stand opposed to water baptism. And I like to say that Paul and the apostles themselves did baptize with water like John, but as they grew in understanding they stopped (e.g. 1Co 1:17).
Let me see if I've got this straight. You are saying that Paul and the apostles used to baptize in water but they later stopped after they grew in understanding. So the Holy Spirit inspired them to baptize in water early on, and then later changed His mind, and inspired them to stop. Do you have any idea how silly that sounds? Don't you think the Holy Spirit was capable of making a one time decision?
YOU SAID, "And I like to say that Paul and the apostles themselves did baptize with water like John, but as they grew in understanding they stopped." (1 Cor. 1:17)
So you are admitting that the apostles baptized in water on the day of Pentecost. You have now contradicted your earlier posts that said there was no water baptism on the day of Pentecost, only Holy Spirit baptism.
You are not the first one on this thread to misuse 1 Corinthians 1:17. It is one of our OP's favorite arguments, which by the way, he refuses to discuss. If you read the passage with an open mind, you will see that there were divisions in the Corinthian church. People were identifying with different leaders, some with whoever had baptized them personally. Paul is simply saying that he is glad he'd only baptized a few of them.
Paul was chosen as an apostle by Jesus to preach the gospel to the Gentiles. His job was much bigger than baptizing people. Baptizing could be done by any christian. Preaching is a much more important job than baptizing people.
10I appeal to you,brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11 My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
If you think for one moment that Paul thought water baptism was not necessary, think again. Who do you think wrote the letter to the Romans? And the letter to the Galatians? And to the Colossians? Paul addresses baptism in every one of his letters (Romans 6:3-5, Galatians 3:27, Colossians 2:11-13).
How could you ever believe Romans 6:3-7 could be anything other than water baptism? Look closely at verse 4. We WERE BURIED WITH HIM THROUGH BAPTISM. This can be none other than water baptism. Don't you see that when we are baptized in water, we symbolically also die just as Christ died? Don't you see that we are buried in water just as Christ was buried? Don't see you are raised from the water just as Christ was raised?
3Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
Not only do the scriptures attest to water baptism, but so does history. Read what the early church fathers say.
Now please give me book, chapter and verse that say the apostles stopped baptizing in water.
Quote:
If you read the epistles without any preconceived notions , you will begin to see what true baptism is.
I read the epistles the same way you do Kids. I have no doubt that you have preconceived notions of your own. I doubt there is a person alive who hasn't read the Bible without preconceived ideas. I have no doubt that you are sincere in your beliefs. I am just as sincere. I have no doubt you spend hours reading and studying your Bible. I do also. We just see things differently.
I have already pointed out to you that there was a marked difference between John's baptism, and christian baptism. John baptized unto repentance for the remission of sins. John's baptism could not give the gift (indwelling) of the Holy Spirit. That could only be accomplished when people repented and were baptized, and it began on the day of Pentecost. Those who obeyed received remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit.
"Say" you believe without obedience all you want...Satan believes in this same manner of belief way more than you do...and God calls him wicked and evil.
Faith was accounted unto Abraham as righteousness...why? because he obeyed God. Without the obedience, your faith is nothing to God, and don't you forget it.
You teach a false gospel Mike, and this is not good for you as much as I know you want to be right in your assumptions concerning salvation...but what you teach does not line up with the Word of God...so one of you are wrong...and I bet my life it isn't God.
Scripture proves you wrong time and time again...the Holy Book is filled to overflowing with His truth concerning faith and obedience...filled to overflowing. Take some time off and just read the holy Scriptures for yourself without listening to other man's teachings...try to listen to God instead...lay all your preconceived ideas (if that is possible) behind you and study for yourself...to show yourself approved...and you will see and understand His truth much differently. I pray for you that this day, this season, will come for you.
In Christ Jesus,
Verna.
Verna, there have been many times I have disagreed with what you've written, but girl, you got it 100% correct this time. You can bet your life on it, faith without works is dead. There can be no faith without obedience. They are inseparable.
A few points:
1.) James chapter 2 says "faith without works is dead."
2.) Ephesians 2 says "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast."
3.) Setting the words of two apostles against each other is idiotic. James vs Paul = Your doing it wrong!!
4.) The only sane approach is: Paul + James = The whole truth.
Conclusion:
-- If your belief in God does not lead to good works then what you have isn't faith. You have something else and that something is useless. "Empty belief" is a good word for it.
-- Works that are not accompanied by belief and trust in God are likewise useless. You can't save yourself.
-- Ultimately only Christ can save us, conditional on actual faith and not empty belief.
YES!!!!!!!!!!!! Someone else on the thread who gets it!!!!!!! Couldn't agree more. Katie
john macarthur has said that obedience is required with faith, otherwise we shall say in that day, Lord,Lord, and he will say I never knew you. I am reading a book about all his sermons and his doctrine is quite different focusing mainly on what he calls "lordship salvation" he maintains that the endless sermons about grace without obedience (repentance) simply lead to easy believism since the believer , who he says cannot come to Jesus, since salvation is sovereign to God alone, otherwise the sinner makes himself sovereign, and which is why the American church is imploding, suffering high attrition in this post modern world
Well I read 4 pages of replies to this post and it is easy to understand now why there are over 300 Christian denominations. It is clear to each poster, and like mud when viewed overall. Is scripture of all revealed religions, I wonder, the same. I studied the Bible for 3 years, and these posts are representative of my research; confusion, contradiction, and a complete lack of clarity and unification of belief. I thought there was one unifying belief, that of faith, but it is very clear from the posts that does not even exist.
We must be careful to guard against this error which is actually pretty common within the protestant church. That is bring up a situation where water baptism is impossible for a believer and then conclude that baptism has no necessary connection with salvation at all. In other words, an example that proves at most that baptism is not absolutely necessary is used to prove that it is not necessary even under ordinary circumstances. This is a non sequiur: It does not follow. In any normal situation where water baptism is at all possible, it is a condition for salvation: "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved."
I have in the past said...
"Baptism is necessary but not absolutely necessary" because of the verse you quoted:
Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Jesus does include baptism in "will be" saved
>>>> however <<<<<
Jesus does not include baptism in "will be" condemned
The thing one must take into account is that it is by grace we are saved, not that we are saved by our understanding of how.
It's one thing to claim that we do not understand how the Holy Spirit works and create faith,
but it's another to confess that the Holy Spirit does works and create through the means (plural)....
*" by the washing with water and the word" (baptism)..Ephesians 5:26-27
*"by faith"...Romans 3:28
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