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Old 04-22-2011, 06:51 AM
 
2,637 posts, read 1,013,822 times
Reputation: 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Isn't salvation a gift, i.e. no cost or payment required?
Have you ever received a gift that you did not have to reach out and take? You had to do something. When you received a birthday gift, did you not have to open it? Did you not have to reach out your hand to accept the gift? Salvation is conditional. Faith itself is a condition, so is repentance, confession and baptism. Grace is a free gift from God, but you must reach out and accept it.
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Old 04-22-2011, 07:28 AM
 
2,637 posts, read 1,013,822 times
Reputation: 191
Quote:
Mike555;18833828]Eternal salvation is as simple as believing in Christ. Placing your faith in Christ. Not faith plus anything added to faith. Eternal salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone (Ephesians 2:8-9). Anything added to faith alone in the belief that it is required for eternal salvation is legalism. A self-righteous intrusion upon the grace of God.
You have misquoted Ephesians 2:8-9

It does not say salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

If you believe that all you need to do is believe to be saved, that is your choice. However, you are setting yourself up as a teacher of the gospel on this forum. You have a responsibility to quote the scriptures EXACTLY the way the inspired writer wrote them, not how you think they should read.

So please, continue to express your opinions, but stop misquoting the scriptures.

Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Notice the scripture does not say we are saved by grace alone, by faith alone, by Christ alone. That is a contradictory and false statement. If you are saved by grace alone, then you eliminate faith and Christ.

Please notice verse 10. We are God's handiwork, created to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us.
What good works did God prepare in advance for us? Faith, repentance and baptism. These are God's works, not man's. The Bible calls each of these a work of God.

These are Divine works They are God's graces, and they are filled with promises.


Baptism is a promise, not a work of human merit. It is a gift from God. (forgiveness of sins, gift of the Holy Spirit, salvation, Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, Acts 22:16).

More grace -Romans 6:3-4, Galatians 3:27 Right in the middle of Paul's discussion of the law-grace contrast, where the idea that works of the law such as circumcision are vehemently rejected, baptism is presented as a saving act, not a work.

Grace - Titus 3:4-7 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

When we are baptized, we are not doing a work, we are receiving a gift, the gift of salvation.

Unless you can show the scripture that says man has a part in the work of baptism, then your opinion is meaningless.

Being baptized for salvation is not undermining God's grace. Baptism is God's gift to us.

He saved us, NOT on the basis of deeds which WE have done. Then how? By faith, repentance and baptism. This is where God the Holy Spirit works HIS works of regeneration and renewing.

It couldn't be any plainer that. Baptism is God's work and not man's. Thus it is the purest grace.

Faith, repentance, baptism = Grace

Baptism doesn't undermine God's grace. Baptism is always in the sphere of grace.

When we are baptized, we call on God to do His promised works, and then trust Him to do it. What are those works?

-union in Christ in His death and resurrection
-union with the whole trinity
-forgiveness of sins (justification)
-a clear conscience
-death to sin
-gift of the Holy Spirit
-regeneration, renewal
-sanctification
-salvation

These are clearly God's works of salvation, and only He can perform them, not man. Baptism is the working of God. (Colossians 2:11-13)

I disagree with you that obeying the gospel of Jesus is legalism. You ascribe to the belief that being baptized undermines the grace of God. What you don't see is that baptism is a work of God, not a work of human merit.

The Bible NEVER calls faith, repentance, baptism a work of human merit. They are all works of God.

Katie

Last edited by katiemygirl; 04-22-2011 at 07:45 AM.. Reason: Sorry, I hit the submit button too early.
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Old 04-22-2011, 07:39 AM
 
2,637 posts, read 1,013,822 times
Reputation: 191
EVERYONE,

I respect your right to have an opinion about how one is saved. If you ascribe to faith only, you are entitled to think that way.

But PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, do not allow anyone on the forums to EVER misquote scripture. Even if you hold to that person's opinion, you should never allow someone to misquote God's Word.

MIKE555 repeatedly misquotes Ephesians 2:8-9
He inserts his own doctrine into the scripture when he says, "We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

If MIKE555 would first quote what the scripture says exactly and then gives his opinion, that would be fine, but that is not what he is doing. I've seen him do this in other threads as well, and no one calls him on it.

PLEASE, if Mike or anyone, including me, quotes a scripture incorrectly, call them on it.

Let's not let Satan have a field day on this forum by allowing scriptures to be quoted incorrectly. Have your opinions, but don't allow this to happen.

Thank You

Katie
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Old 04-22-2011, 07:56 AM
 
7,768 posts, read 9,480,450 times
Reputation: 3389
Belief, in scripture, does not simply mean "acknowledge the existence of".

James 2:19 says "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. "

Certainly Satan knows and "believes" in Jesus.

"Believe" in scripture is an action word. Faith without works (read:action) is dead.

No, we don't work our way into being saved but being saved changes the works we do from works of the flesh to works of the Spirit. Without that change, you believe as the demons do.
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Old 04-22-2011, 10:47 AM
Status: "ask why me ... rather than not why not them" (set 28 days ago)
 
9,408 posts, read 4,889,794 times
Reputation: 1025
I'm glad that Alpha brought up James and that Katie references the latter half Ephesians 2:8-10
and Mike references Ephesians 2:8-9 and concludes "by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone"

The difference between Matthew 25:44 and Matthew 25:37 is Ephesians 2:8-9

However..........
>> Ephesians 2:8-9 and Ephesians 2:10 are two sides of the same coin. <<
From Genesis to Rev ... the only reason believers are whom they are is because of Ephesians 2:8-9.
  • Do a word search on "chose or chosen" and read whom it is that does it.
  • That is why Baptism saves Ephesians 5:25-26, Acts 22:16, Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, John 3:5
    • not to mention that is how Jesus commanded to make disciples Matthew 28:19
Yet from Genesis to Rev .... God in the OT, Jesus in the NT says that true faith makes the believer different from the unbeliever.
It is that difference that shows up in changes of attitudes, lifestyle and the battle against the sinful nature Ephesians 2:10.


__________________________________________________ ________

Subsequently both are dependent on one another.
Without the correct faith Ephesians 2:8-9, Ephesians 2:10 is meaningless. ( "without faith it is impossible to please God" Hebrews 11:6)

By the same token ...without Ephesians 2:10, Ephesians 2:8-9 is meaningless.

And that is the entire point of the book of James. As Alpha said:

"Believe" in scripture is an action word.
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Old 04-22-2011, 10:58 AM
 
12,660 posts, read 6,524,934 times
Reputation: 2163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207 View Post
Belief, in scripture, does not simply mean "acknowledge the existence of".

James 2:19 says "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. "

Certainly Satan knows and "believes" in Jesus.

"Believe" in scripture is an action word. Faith without works (read:action) is dead.

No, we don't work our way into being saved but being saved changes the works we do from works of the flesh to works of the Spirit. Without that change, you believe as the demons do.
Read carefully the definition of Pistueo. It means to be persuaded. It also means to put your trust in Christ. This assumes that the one believing wants to have a relationship with Christ. The one who believes in Christ puts his trust in Christ for salvation. Fallen angels are not trusting Christ for salvation.

When James says that faith without works is dead, he is not saying that if you don't have good works you are not eternally saved. He is saying that simply that your faith is unproductive. People can only see by your works what is in your heart. But God can see what is in your heart.

At the bottom of post #1 I mentioned that there is a difference between positional sanctifcation and experiential sanctification and I provided a study on it. You might want to look at it.

Being saved does not automatically mean that your works are divine production. The believer out of fellowship through sin can only produce human good which is rejected by God. The believer must be in fellowship, under the control of the Holy Spirit through acknowledgement of known sins as per 1 John 1:9 in order to produce divine good.
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Old 04-22-2011, 11:18 AM
 
12,660 posts, read 6,524,934 times
Reputation: 2163
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
I'm glad that Alpha brought up James and that Katie references the latter half Ephesians 2:8-10
and Mike references Ephesians 2:8-9 and concludes "by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone"

The difference between Matthew 25:44 and Matthew 25:37 is Ephesians 2:8-9

However..........
>> Ephesians 2:8-9 and Ephesians 2:10 are two sides of the same coin. <<
From Genesis to Rev ... the only reason believers are whom they are is because of Ephesians 2:8-9.
  • Do a word search on "chose or chosen" and read whom it is that does it.
  • That is why Baptism saves Ephesians 5:25-26, Acts 22:16, Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, John 3:5
    • not to mention that is how Jesus commanded to make disciples Matthew 28:19
Yet from Genesis to Rev .... God in the OT, Jesus in the NT says that true faith makes the believer different from the unbeliever.
It is that difference that shows up in changes of attitudes, lifestyle and the battle against the sinful nature Ephesians 2:10.


__________________________________________________ ________

Subsequently both are dependent on one another.
Without the correct faith Ephesians 2:8-9, Ephesians 2:10 is meaningless. ( "without faith it is impossible to please God" Hebrews 11:6)

By the same token ...without Ephesians 2:10, Ephesians 2:8-9 is meaningless.

And that is the entire point of the book of James. As Alpha said:

"Believe" in scripture is an action word.
Twin, surely you have seen my references from time to time reqarding Positional sanctification and experiential sanctification. I even provided a study on it in post #1 of this thread. The only way the unbeliever can obey is to obey the gospel which means to believe what it says about Christ and therefore put your trust in Christ. Obedience in the Christian life comes after salvation and is a part of discipleship. Do you not see the distinction? You cannot impose upon an unbeliever as a condition for salvation that which only the believer under the filling of the Holy Spirit can do.

This thread is not intended to be about water baptism, but I suppose it is inevitable that the baptismal regeneration people would make themselves heard.

Twin, here are seven hours of lessons on baptism. If your want to understand the subject better, then feel free to listen: Baptism (Audios) : Country Bible Church - Brenham, TX

Last edited by Mike555; 04-22-2011 at 11:27 AM..
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Old 04-22-2011, 11:25 AM
 
12,660 posts, read 6,524,934 times
Reputation: 2163
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
EVERYONE,

I respect your right to have an opinion about how one is saved. If you ascribe to faith only, you are entitled to think that way.

But PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, do not allow anyone on the forums to EVER misquote scripture. Even if you hold to that person's opinion, you should never allow someone to misquote God's Word.

MIKE555 repeatedly misquotes Ephesians 2:8-9
He inserts his own doctrine into the scripture when he says, "We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

If MIKE555 would first quote what the scripture says exactly and then gives his opinion, that would be fine, but that is not what he is doing. I've seen him do this in other threads as well, and no one calls him on it.

PLEASE, if Mike or anyone, including me, quotes a scripture incorrectly, call them on it.

Let's not let Satan have a field day on this forum by allowing scriptures to be quoted incorrectly. Have your opinions, but don't allow this to happen.

Thank You

Katie
No Katie. I have not misquoted Ephesians 2:8-9. I gave the passage itself along with several other passages in post #7. You can't miss it. Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.
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Old 04-22-2011, 11:38 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 3,362,657 times
Reputation: 628
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Have you ever received a gift that you did not have to reach out and take? You had to do something. When you received a birthday gift, did you not have to open it? Did you not have to reach out your hand to accept the gift? Salvation is conditional. Faith itself is a condition, so is repentance, confession and baptism. Grace is a free gift from God, but you must reach out and accept it.

If your electricity was turned off and someone paid the electric company to turn it back on, there would be nothing required of you to reach out and take in order to receive that free gift.
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Old 04-22-2011, 11:49 AM
 
Location: DALLAS, TX COUNTY
405 posts, read 540,306 times
Reputation: 304
I have my own belief but I would like to understand this belief. I think I might understand it if you could answer this question. If all I need to do is believe to be saved, does that mean that I can have as many sexual partners as I want, or I can steal, or I can abuse my children a little, or any other type of sin that you can think of, but because I believe in Christ, it doesn't matter that I do these things because I am still saved anyway, I am still gonna go live with Him?
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