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Old 04-22-2011, 03:20 PM
 
2,637 posts, read 1,010,167 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
I'm glad that Alpha brought up James and that Katie references the latter half Ephesians 2:8-10
and Mike references Ephesians 2:8-9 and concludes "by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone"

The difference between Matthew 25:44 and Matthew 25:37 is Ephesians 2:8-9

However..........
>> Ephesians 2:8-9 and Ephesians 2:10 are two sides of the same coin. <<
From Genesis to Rev ... the only reason believers are whom they are is because of Ephesians 2:8-9.
  • Do a word search on "chose or chosen" and read whom it is that does it.
  • That is why Baptism saves Ephesians 5:25-26, Acts 22:16, Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, John 3:5
    • not to mention that is how Jesus commanded to make disciples Matthew 28:19
Yet from Genesis to Rev .... God in the OT, Jesus in the NT says that true faith makes the believer different from the unbeliever.
It is that difference that shows up in changes of attitudes, lifestyle and the battle against the sinful nature Ephesians 2:10.


__________________________________________________ ________

Subsequently both are dependent on one another.
Without the correct faith Ephesians 2:8-9, Ephesians 2:10 is meaningless. ( "without faith it is impossible to please God" Hebrews 11:6)
By the same token ...without Ephesians 2:10, Ephesians 2:8-9 is meaningless.

And that is the entire point of the book of James. As Alpha said:

"Believe" in scripture is an action word.
Very well said.
Katie
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Old 04-22-2011, 03:23 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 3,356,501 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GREATDIVIDE46 View Post
Yes, there would. Wouldn't you have to actually use your electricity? A free gift where no action is taken is a free gift being ignored.
I'm certain that at some point they will be inspired to use it, even if not right away.

Such is the nature of God drawing us to him.
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Old 04-22-2011, 03:33 PM
 
2,637 posts, read 1,010,167 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No Katie. I have not misquoted Ephesians 2:8-9. I gave the passage itself along with several other passages in post #7. You can't miss it. Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.
No Mike, I am speaking of your original post, which is the one most people will read. You cited Ephesians 2:8-9. You did not quote it. You quoted your own belief which is, "you are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, through Christ alone."

I am happy to hear you did quote the actual scripture in post #7. Thank you for doing it. But you should have done it in your original post knowing that people are more likely to read an OP than other posts in the thread.

Like I said, I don't mind when people tell their opinions. I respect that. But it is totally wrong to cite a scripture and then quote it using your own beliefs. So please, I am asking you, do not do this in the future. Give us your opinion of what you think the truth is, but quote the scriptures exactly the way they are in the Word of God. Take the extra minute to copy and paste the original scripture and then say what you'd like.

And yes, I will continue to defend the gospel. We are told to be baptized for the remission of sins. For as often as you say all we need to do is believe, then I have no choice but to refute what you say. I think you are wrong. I do not expect you to respond to my posts, which is okay. But I will post the truth when I think you or someone else is not speaking the truth.

Katie
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Old 04-22-2011, 03:44 PM
 
2,637 posts, read 1,010,167 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
If your electricity was turned off and someone paid the electric company to turn it back on, there would be nothing required of you to reach out and take in order to receive that free gift.
I understand what you are saying. I fully agree that salvation is a gift from God. We can do nothing to earn it. But still, it is conditional. If it weren't, then everyone who ever lived in the world would be saved, and we know that isn't so, unless of course, you ascribe to universalism, which I do not.

Katie
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Old 04-22-2011, 03:53 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 3,356,501 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
I understand what you are saying. I fully agree that salvation is a gift from God. We can do nothing to earn it. But still, it is conditional. If it weren't, then everyone who ever lived in the world would be saved, and we know that isn't so, unless of course, you ascribe to universalism, which I do not.

Katie

What people do not realize is that salvation has nothing to do with a choice you make, your salvation is assured because it is a promise by God.


How you work that out with God will indeed shape the path you take getting there.

The problem that arises over this condition is that people teach that it is possible to be in a state of hopelessness at some point that cannot be rectified, that is where people are wrong, There is nothing man can desire or think of or argue about that will prevent him from accomplishing his desires.
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Old 04-22-2011, 04:08 PM
 
2,637 posts, read 1,010,167 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kids in america_ View Post
I disagree.
The author of Galatians says, “by works of the law no flesh at all shall be justified.” The “law” refers to the Mosaic Law. Water “baptism” has deep roots in Judaism and Mosaic Law. Water “baptism” is a work of the law. So I doubt water baptism fits in the context of Ephesians 2:8-10.
Baptism may have its roots in Judaism, but Jesus commissioned his apostles, and us to make disciples by baptizing them. We can see Peter carrying out the great commission in Acts 2.

The old law, was done away with when Jesus died on the cross. On the day of Pentecost, the inspired apostle Peter commanded the people to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This is christian baptism, and has nothing to do with the Mosaic law.

The Holy Spirit is not new to the New Testament. The judges, prophets, and other selected individuals were filled with the Holy Spirit to accomplish the purposes of God. That is the major difference between the Old and New Testaments. Now, all obedient believers are indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

Washings and cleansings in the Old Testament did not give the Holy Spirit. Baptism in the New Testament does.

Please read my earlier post. Baptism is a grace, not a work of human merit. The scriptures themselves describe baptism as a work of God. Man would never be capable of doing the work God does for us when we are baptized.

Katie
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Old 04-22-2011, 04:17 PM
 
12,647 posts, read 6,495,150 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Mike,
I have tried to read those and one of the two things happen for me.
Either I can't follow the thought being presented or I just don't agree to the primise that sanctification is positional, experiential and Ultimate.
From my position this is what scripture teaches about Sanctification:

It's the work of the Holy Spirit through the means of grace.
The Bible uses the word "sanctification" in two different ways
"Sanctify or Sanctification" ... To make holy
  1. (in the wider sense)
    • to call someone out of the unbelieving world to be holy by bringing that person to faith in Christ, enlightening him, and keeping him in the faith.
  2. (In the narrow sense)
    • to lead the believer to hate sin and be eager to live a holy life filled with good works
The Bible teaches that faith in Jesus Christ is living and active. Therefore faith produces good deeds that are pleasing to God. True faith, nourished by God’s Word, delights to do the holy will of God. In this sinful world, however, even the best works of a Christian are still dirtied with sin. We will never be perfect in this life.

For Jesus’ sake, the imperfect efforts of a Christian are graciously considered acceptable by our Father in heaven and we are then assured of being holy by God.

James 2:17; Hebrews 11:6; Romans 7:19; Isaiah 64:6; 2 Corinthians 7:1; Galatians 5:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:3; Ephesians 2:10
Twin, perhaps this will make more sense to you. Positionally speaking, the moment a person believes in Christ for salvation, he not only is imputed with the righteousness of God the Father, but because he has been placed into union with Christ he shares the righteousness of Christ. Because the believer has been given the righteousness of God (as well as His eternal life), he is qualified to have an eternal relationship with God. No matter what the believers own experiential status is, as far as his position in Christ is concerned, he is perfect. The believer, since he is in Christ is identified with Christ in not only His death, but in His resurrection, ascension, and session. In other words, the believer, because of his position in Christ, is seated with Christ at the right hand of the Father. And he can never lose that position, because in terms of eternal salvation, God only sees His own perfect righteousness in the believer regardless of the believers experiential status.

Positionally: Heb 10:10 'By this will we (believers) have been sanctified (Perfect Passive Participle - past action completed with continuing results) through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. ... 14] For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. Hebrews 10:14 says that the believer, having been sanctified, is once and for all perfected (Positionally speaking). Positionally the believer has been sanctified. Past tense.

But experientially, the believer, if He is growing spiritually is being sanctified. Present tense. The believer is expected to grow up spiritually after he has been saved and that is the process of experiential sanctification. The book of Colossians states, ''If you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. Set your mind on things above, not on things that are on earth. For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God'' (Col. 3:1-3). Those in Christ are to seek the things which are above. They are to set their minds on things above. This is opposed to seeking the things of the earth, and setting one's mind on things of the earth.

1 Thess 4:1-8 describes experiential sanctification. 'Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that, as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk), that you may excel still more. 2] For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus. 3] For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality; 4] that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5] not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6] and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you. 7] For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification. 8] Consequently, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you.'

Positional sanctification is a one time event for the one who believes in Christ. He is entered into union with Christ and has been set apart unto God.

Experiential sanctification is an ongoing process in which the believer (If he is growing spiritually) becomes spiritually mature in his Christian walk.

Twin, even spiritually mature believers can drift off course and be undistinquishable from an unbeliever. Solomon is a perfect example of that, and that is the purpose of the book of Ecclesiastes. Ecclesiastes portrays Solomon at a time in his life when he was turned away from God (he didn't lose his salvation) by his many wives. He began looking at life from human viewpoint and started experimenting with sex, Philosophy, success and wealth, pleasure, etc... as means of attaining happiness. He no longer was thinking as a spiritually mature believer, but just as an unbeliever would think. But he was still saved and did before he died turn back toward God.

There is no standing still in the spiritual life. At any given time, the believer is either retrogressing or he is advancing spiritually. Qui non proficit deficit (Latin: 'He who does not advance, retreats')
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Old 04-22-2011, 04:29 PM
 
2,637 posts, read 1,010,167 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kids in america_ View Post
I disagree.
The author of Galatians says, “by works of the law no flesh at all shall be justified.” The “law” refers to the Mosaic Law. Water “baptism” has deep roots in Judaism and Mosaic Law. Water “baptism” is a work of the law. So I doubt water baptism fits in the context of Ephesians 2:8-10.
Baptism has its roots in the Old Testament. Various washings and cleansings were required for purification.

However, the Old Testament with its purification rites was nailed to the cross along with Jesus.

On the day of Pentecost, when the church began, Peter, the inspired apostle, carrying out Jesus' great commission, commanded the people to be baptized for the forgiveness of sins, and they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Christian baptism is not part of the Mosaic Law. Conversions are recorded throughout the book of Acts.

Being filled with the Holy Spirit is not new to the New Testament. The judges, prophets, and other selected individuals had the Holy Spirit and accomplished whatever God's purpose was for them.

This is the major difference between the Old and New Testaments. Now, all obedient believers everywhere are indwelt with the Holy Spirit when they believe, repent, confess, and are baptized.

Where in the Bible does it say baptism is a work of human merit? If it is, then so is faith, repentance, and confession because each of them require us to DO something.

Please show me the scripture that says baptism is a work of human merit. Every single baptism scripture talks about what God is doing for us, and nothing about man doing anything other than walking into the water. If you consider this a work, then how do you confess Jesus as your Lord and Savior? Surely speaking those words would be a work.

You hold the faith alone doctrine that teaches that baptism is a work of human merit, but not one single person can show that to be true in the Bible, and even when it's proven to them that baptism is God doing the work, it doesn't matter. They still won't accept it. You know why? PRIDE! It's the way you were taught, and you won't let it go.

If it's not in the Bible, then it's not true.

You said you disagreed that baptism is a gift from God? You don't believe He does the work in baptism? You are kidding right?


Katie
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Old 04-22-2011, 04:42 PM
 
2,637 posts, read 1,010,167 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
What people do not realize is that salvation has nothing to do with a choice you make, your salvation is assured because it is a promise by God.

How you work that out with God will indeed shape the path you take getting there.

The problem that arises over this condition is that people teach that it is possible to be in a state of hopelessness at some point that cannot be rectified, that is where people are wrong, There is nothing man can desire or think of or argue about that will prevent him from accomplishing his desires.
You are wrong. It has everything to do with the choices we make. It is a conditional promise. Otherwise, everyone is saved. That is universalism, and it is not what the Bible teaches.

You are saying everyone is saved, and they can be in any way they choose. That's not what the Bible teaches. Jesus is the way, the only way. He gave us a plan of salvation. We must obey that plan in order to be saved.

I do not agree that it is possible to be in a state of hopelessness. I believe one can stay in that state if he chooses. A person who repents can come back to God. There are many examples of this throughout the Bible. Our God is a very forgiving and loving God. David comes to mind. Look at what he did to Bathsheba's husband.

I also believe one can lost his salvation. I know that's not what this thread is about, but I thought it a good time to say it.

Katie
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Old 04-22-2011, 04:51 PM
 
Location: DALLAS, TX COUNTY
405 posts, read 538,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
What you do after you have been eternally saved through faith alone in Christ alone has no effect on your eternal salvation. It does however have an effect on your spiritual walk after salvation. When you believe in Christ you are placed into a permanent and unbreakable union with Christ.

In Hebrews 10:14, we read, ''For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.'' This refers to Positional Sanctification in which at the moment of salvation a person is entered into union with Christ through the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

But experiential sanctification refers to the believers spiritual walk after having been saved though faith alone in Christ alone.

I refer you to this study on Sanctification: Foundations: Studies in Bible Theology

The disobedient believer who refuses to name his sins to God as per 1 John 1:9 and goes his own way after salvation does come under divine discipline.

Hebrews 12:4 'You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin; 5] and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, ''My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord. Nor faint when you are reproved by Him; 6] For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, And He scourges every son whom He receives.''

With regard to the things that you mentioned, the believer will come under divine discipline in this life and can lose eternal rewards, but he cannot lose his salvation. Eternal security is not a license to sin. The believer, being assured of his eternal security is freed from the worry which legalism gives birth to, and is able to relax and grow up spiritually by learning and applying Bible doctrine to the circumstances of his life.

The obedience to the word of God, and the spiritual walk which only a believer under the filling of the Holy Spirit can have cannot be imposed on an unbeliever as a condition for eternal salvation.

A positive faith response to the gospel results in eternal salvation which should motivate the believer to grow up spiritually.
What is the spiritual walk that one should take while here on earth?
If I am a disobedient believer but as I am on my deathbed I confess my sins to God, does that mean that I will not be subjected to divine discipline?
What kind of eternal rewards would I be loosing?
Thanks!
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