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Old 04-25-2011, 10:37 AM
 
351 posts, read 283,340 times
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I was talking with my wife the other day while we were listening to a Bible study and the subject came up did Jesus really die on the cross or did just his body die and he was still alive.

I told my wife that I thought many Christians do not think Jesus really die on the cross but just his body die and he went to preach to other in Hell like it says in the apostles creed.

The question really comes down to what is death. I believe that when Jesus died he was dead. The dead know nothing and there is no consciousness in Sheol which literally means "unperceived" . I have had many people tell me that when we die we automatically go to heaven or hell. If we are already in heaven or hell why would we need resurrection?

I believe when we are dead we are dead and we remain dead until Jesus returns and we are resurrected. The good news is that because the dead know nothing that when we die, whether it is a little while or a thousand years, to us it will be like closing our eyes and opening them to be in front of Jesus at his return.

The Bible likens death to sleep so like when you go to sleep at night and then you wake up in the morning to you,even though you know hours have past, you are not aware of them, you were unconscious, they were "unperceived".

As Paul says our hope is in the resurrection of Jesus because it shows us that we too will be resurrected.

I don't know how to set up a poll question on this site but if I could I would ask Did Jesus really die on the cross or just his body dies and he was still alive in spirit form.
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Old 04-25-2011, 12:14 PM
 
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Jesus really did completely die on the cross. On the third day God brought Him back to life.

He did not go to hell and preach to people while He was dead.
The verse people often mistake for that actually says:
1 Peter 3:18-20 CLV seeing that Christ also, for our sakes, once died concerning sins, the just for
the sake of the unjust, that He may be leading us to God; being put to death, indeed, in flesh, yet
vivified in spirit
, (19) in which, being gone to the spirits in jail also, (20) He heralds to those once
stubborn, when the patience of God awaited in the days of Noah while the ark was being
constructed, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were brought safely through water,

Once He was vivified (brought back to life), then He went to the SPIRITS in jail. Humans are never called "spirits" in the Bible. They were spirits which were stubborn in Noah's day.
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Old 04-25-2011, 10:54 PM
 
335 posts, read 314,770 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sschulz View Post
I was talking with my wife the other day while we were listening to a Bible study and the subject came up did Jesus really die on the cross or did just his body die and he was still alive.

I told my wife that I thought many Christians do not think Jesus really die on the cross but just his body die and he went to preach to other in Hell like it says in the apostles creed.

The question really comes down to what is death. I believe that when Jesus died he was dead. The dead know nothing and there is no consciousness in Sheol which literally means "unperceived" . I have had many people tell me that when we die we automatically go to heaven or hell. If we are already in heaven or hell why would we need resurrection?

I believe when we are dead we are dead and we remain dead until Jesus returns and we are resurrected. The good news is that because the dead know nothing that when we die, whether it is a little while or a thousand years, to us it will be like closing our eyes and opening them to be in front of Jesus at his return.

The Bible likens death to sleep so like when you go to sleep at night and then you wake up in the morning to you,even though you know hours have past, you are not aware of them, you were unconscious, they were "unperceived".

As Paul says our hope is in the resurrection of Jesus because it shows us that we too will be resurrected.

I don't know how to set up a poll question on this site but if I could I would ask Did Jesus really die on the cross or just his body dies and he was still alive in spirit form.
Your reasoning is sound as the bible says he died.

Theology is the problem. I think it comes down to if you ascribe to trinitarian views or not. They get into some creative explanations separating God and Jesus, redefining death, etc., to explain this.

If Jesus is God, then he was obviously not immortal prior to being in the flesh, otherwise he could not have experienced death. He was in the flesh after his ressurection so the immortality he put on had to involve life, not just flesh, or an incorporeal form. This is simple. If someone attempts to explain this away, it is man's theology.

If he was not immortal at some point, then he was not omnipotent.

If he did not die, then he is a liar and the bible is invalid.

Don't let theology and smooth words distract you from what you own perceptions, reasoning, and the scriptures show.
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Old 04-26-2011, 05:46 AM
 
Location: Indianapolis
4,325 posts, read 5,135,262 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sschulz View Post
I was talking with my wife the other day while we were listening to a Bible study and the subject came up did Jesus really die on the cross or did just his body die and he was still alive.

I told my wife that I thought many Christians do not think Jesus really die on the cross but just his body die and he went to preach to other in Hell like it says in the apostles creed.

The question really comes down to what is death. I believe that when Jesus died he was dead. The dead know nothing and there is no consciousness in Sheol which literally means "unperceived" . I have had many people tell me that when we die we automatically go to heaven or hell. If we are already in heaven or hell why would we need resurrection?

I believe when we are dead we are dead and we remain dead until Jesus returns and we are resurrected. The good news is that because the dead know nothing that when we die, whether it is a little while or a thousand years, to us it will be like closing our eyes and opening them to be in front of Jesus at his return.

The Bible likens death to sleep so like when you go to sleep at night and then you wake up in the morning to you,even though you know hours have past, you are not aware of them, you were unconscious, they were "unperceived".

As Paul says our hope is in the resurrection of Jesus because it shows us that we too will be resurrected.

I don't know how to set up a poll question on this site but if I could I would ask Did Jesus really die on the cross or just his body dies and he was still alive in spirit form.
Jesus' material body died but His spirit and soul remained alive. The form that He showed to the apostles was His true spirit form. He has since appeared to many people but only a handful believe it's Him. I have personally talked to Him, yes, His spirit. He is a beautiful person in all ways. Albeit I was a little intimidated at the time but it was truely Him. When we pass form this world to the next, we are a different form of energy. We will resume where we left off from here and progress to our Father in Heaven, never becoming mortal again.
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Old 04-26-2011, 07:59 AM
 
351 posts, read 283,340 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend1111 View Post
Jesus' material body died but His spirit and soul remained alive. The form that He showed to the apostles was His true spirit form. He has since appeared to many people but only a handful believe it's Him. I have personally talked to Him, yes, His spirit. He is a beautiful person in all ways. Albeit I was a little intimidated at the time but it was truely Him. When we pass form this world to the next, we are a different form of energy. We will resume where we left off from here and progress to our Father in Heaven, never becoming mortal again.

Hey Reverend 1111, If Jesus did not really die and if we do not really die, but are transformed into a differant form of energy, why would we need ressurection ? Remember it was Satan who said that if Eve ate from the tree of good and evil she would not die. God says we die. I believe God.

If we are another form but it is our essence then we did not die, just our body did. I believe we die and the body returns to dust and the breathe of God that gave us life returns to him and we are dead completely and that is why our only hope is ressurection.
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Old 04-26-2011, 08:32 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,442,202 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend1111 View Post
Sarcasm isn't pretty.
Moderator cut: Orphaned

On a more serious note though, Jesus really did die. When He died, the Bible says His spirit returned to God Who gave it, His soul went imperceptible and if He was not resurrected, His body would have returned to the soil.

Since God is everywhere, when we die and our spirits return to God, that just means our spirits are with God right beyond our skin.

Since the soul is the RESULT of combining spirit with body, when the body dies the soul goes *poof*.

So when Jesus died He really was in unconscious death. He wasn't playing checkers in some far-off corner of paradise during death.

Last edited by june 7th; 04-26-2011 at 10:59 AM..
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Old 04-26-2011, 08:33 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,442,202 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sschulz View Post
Hey Reverend 1111, If Jesus did not really die and if we do not really die, but are transformed into a differant form of energy, why would we need ressurection ? Remember it was Satan who said that if Eve ate from the tree of good and evil she would not die. God says we die. I believe God.

If we are another form but it is our essence then we did not die, just our body did. I believe we die and the body returns to dust and the breathe of God that gave us life returns to him and we are dead completely and that is why our only hope is ressurection.
Excellent Post!
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Old 04-26-2011, 10:15 AM
 
37,553 posts, read 25,268,086 times
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Default Belief in superstition and magic is powerful indeed.

If Jesus is God . . . how could He ever die? Even if you believe He is only the Son of God . . . how could He ever die? If we have been adopted children of God through Christ . . . how could we ever die? Death has been abolished, period.
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Old 04-26-2011, 11:48 AM
 
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1 Corinthians 15

1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

9For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

10But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

11Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.

12Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

29Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

30And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?

31I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

32If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

33Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

34Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

39All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.


It's very sad "Christians" are questioning Jesus's humanity. His resurrection is our very hope for resurrection of our death.

I think it's quite clear.

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Jesus was fully flesh and blood on earth (Son of man born of the Virgin Mary; Son of God conceived from the holy spirit) and fully God in one. The pain and sacrifice Jesus felt was as if you and I were in his shoes. Jesus even prayed the burden be taken from him at first. He died just as we die. Psalm 22 is written as if it's Jesus on the Cross talking to the Father. "My God My God" <<< At this moment, he is fully human being sacrificed for us. He was resurrected from a full death in which he was buried. This is the core of the Christian belief.
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Old 04-26-2011, 03:06 PM
 
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I can't believe this is being asked on a Christian Forum.
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