Mark 16:15-16 DID JESUS SAY IT? (women, theist, missionary, Biblically)

[kids in america_]

Originally Posted by katiemygirl

Okay, it does say should be saved. So are you saying that people today are wrong to say they are saved? I hear it all the time. People say, " I got saved two years ago." Were the people back in acts 2 saved at that moment when they believed and were baptized or did they have to wait until they died to be saved? And what a bout the verse that says, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation? If they obey aren't they saved? Are people today saved? I'm not arguing Kids. Just asking your opinion. Don't you think this could make a good thread topic? Here is something to think about. Christians are justified, sanctified. Sanctified means set apart. They are also priests and saints. That seems like they are saved to me but can fall if they don't remain faithful. Of course the final reward won't come until judgement day.

I think my main point was to show that Acts 2:41 shows us that the people were saved, or if you prefer to say placed in a saved condition, when they beleved Peter and were baptized. You can't get around that.

Katie

There's nothing to get around.

[Clear lens]

A ) ANCIENT WARRIOR : Regarding your statements on the ending of Mark from the OP :


1) Regarding your Quote

From the New American Bible footnotes : "Early citations of it by the Fathers indicate that it was composed by the second century, although vocabulary and style indicate that it was written by someone other than Mark."

- I agree with you on this point that most scholars would NOT attribute this text to mark (or whoever the author was who wrote mark)

Most of the errors in new Testament manuscripts are believed to be ADDITIONS to text that should not be there rather than DELETIONS since copyists were more reluctant to take from text that which they did not believe but would have felt justified in adding text they felt represented “correct doctrines” (according to THEM).


2) Regarding the poster who claimed :

“>>All other Greek manuscripts (about 500 of them) do contain them.<<“ (the text).

I also very much agree with your assessment that this statement is simply untrue.


3) In your Post #384 You related Bokenkotters point that

“Words, for instance, were put in the mouth of Jesus and stories told about him, which, while not historical in the strict sense, nevertheless, in the minds of the evangelists, fittingly expressed the real meaning and intent of Jesus as faith had come to perceive him.”

I think Bokenkotters mechanism also reflects the reason many spurious texts ended up in the New Testament (e.g. the woman taken in adultery, the johannine commna, long mark, etc.). I do NOT think the copyists were trying to do something wrong by adding texts that did not belong in the New Testament text, but rather than they felt some of these texts and stories were “spiritual” and “added to the glory of God” and agreed with and supported their own theology.

I have to feel that many of the later evolutions and additions to christian doctrines were often developed for the same reasons (e.g. creation from “nothing” - ex nihilo, salvation “at an instant”, etc). The motives in such instances were not evil, but instead were made with “good intent”, but the results were often confusing and counterproductive, and resulted in millennia-long debates that were un-needed in the earliest christianities.




B ) KIDS IN AMERICA :

Regarding your post #387 where you responded to katiemygirl’s post :

Katie said : Oh no no no my friend. Acts 2 very clearly says they were saved when they believed and were baptized. Verses 41 and 47. Those are not my words. It's what the scriptures say....

I agree that we must remain faithful before we can receive our final reward. I can even agree that we are in a saved condition but the scriptures say these people were saved and they were added to the church when they believed and were baptized.

Kids in America responded by first quoting : Act 2:47 “Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. (KJV)” and then kids in america explained : “Katie, the second half of verse 47 is in the future tense: “the Lord added to the church daily such as SHOULD be saved." The verse doesn’t say such as “have been” saved (past tense). There is no scripture in the 'bible' that says anybody has ever been 'saved' (past tense) in this life.”

Kids in America : I am very impressed by this simple but profound point you made, that “saved” in Acts 2:47 is not a “past perfect tense” and refers instead to an ongoing process. Both the greek texts and translators agree with you.

For example, the text you are discussing, reads :
“and the Lord added those who were being saved daily to the assembly” and in the greek :
“Ο.δε κθριοσ προσετιθει τους σωζομενουσ καθ .ημεραν τη εκκλησια΅

I’m at work so I don’t have many greek versions and simply compared stephens version of 1850 translated by Erasmus (which includes the Elzevir marginal notes of 1850) since this greek test represents the Textus Receptus which underlies the KJV.

I also compared Cambridges wonderful copy of Codex Bezae Catabriensis (“D”) by Scrivener.

Though Σωζομενουσ is the plural reference to the root σωζω (which means to save from peril or injury), Berry, in his wonderful interlinear discussed the difficulties with The aorist tense in HIS interlinear translation (which also agrees with the other three) Berry points out that this tense is difficult to translate (does the translator add a few English words to the sentence translated or try to be literal at the expense of clarity?).

For example, Berry points out that in the KJV it is translated sometimes by present, sometimes by past, sometimes by future and sometimes by perfect. He uses the example :

“If I say, ‘ he has cleansed me,’ it is more than saying ‘he cleansed me.’ The former indicates the perfect, and implies a continuance of the act, or it’s effects to the present time; whereas the latter speaks of an act at some time in the past without anything being implied as to its continuance.

Thus one rule is to avoid translating the aorist as the perfect except in the few places where the true sense is destroyed.

Thus, I think your idea is certainly in keeping with avoidance of the perfect tense in the use of “saved” in this Acts 2:47. Kudo’s to you for such a sensible idea. I am so impressed by your point that I think I'll grab a critical edition and look at several of the references to "saved" to see if they agree as well. Thanks for a new and interesting project.

Clear




C ) KATIEMYGIRL

Katiemygirl post #389 said “Let me leave you with this, however. I don't think you are saying that the Holy Spirit spoke to you personally. Guiding you in the right direction, and leading you is what it sounds like you are saying, and with that I agree totally. But I need to reread your entire post more closely and give it some thought to give it the credence it deserves.

Katiemygirl; I AM SAYING I believe the Holy Spirit gave me direction personally and I believe that the Holy Ghost gives many, many, many Christians personal direction and that he is willing to give ALL individuals personal direction. The Holy Ghost did not speak in an audible voice to me (though I believe he could speak that way to an individual if for some reason he wanted to…). However, it does not matter whether the influence that comes to individuals through the Holy Spirit is an audible voice, or a “still small voice”, or a waking vision, or a dream, or an inspiration that seems like intelligence itself being poured into their minds; or a simple insight.

ALL individuals may have a capability of having a degree of inspiration and influence of the Holy Spirit in their lives. This was part of what surprised the Jews in Peters time who had concluded that only Jews (or Jewish Christians) would have the holy spirit. Once it was apparent that the Gentiles had the Holy Spirit influence them in an undeniable way, Peter is able to convince the nay-sayers that they could not forbid them baptism and full membership into the christian society.

My point is that those who are faithful and repentant, and obedient have MORE of this influence than those who are unfaithful and unrepentant and disobedient to gospel principles. Yes, I am saying the Holy Spirit influences me personally AND that he influences almost all others personally (though I admit there are other types of communication God may employ).


Katie Asked : “One thing I'd like you to give some thought to. What was the purpose of the gifts of the Holy Spirit?”

I believe that, generally, the ultimate purpose of almost all communication of the spirit is to impart intelligence and understanding and insight regarding moral law and to advance mankind in the learning of and experience with moral laws which will ultimately allow them to live in a social heaven, having thereby learned to gain and keep harmony and joy among themselves forever. The spirit guides lives of individual in the directions which will give them the greatest knowledge and experience to the end that they may live in heaven if they so desire.



Clear
futwsisiis

[Clear lens]

KIDS IN AMERICA : It occurred to me that I probably lost most individuals who have no background in greek grammar when attempting to explain WHY I agreed with your important point in post #387 that in Acts 2:47, you correctly pointed out The reference to individuals that "should be saved" is NOT a reference to being saved in the past tense, as in a completed (i.e. perfected) act, but refers instead to a continuance of an act being done (i.e. the "ongoing process" of being saved).

That being said, I simply meant that you were correct. Sorry if I lost anyone. I am as much a neophyte at greek as I am almost everything else. If you want me to, I'll slap myself (but not real hard...).

Clear
fudracsiih

P.S. I do think it would be an interesting project to see if other references to the use of the word "saved" in the Textus Receptus based bibles are used in the sense "being or becoming saved" in the sense of a process (since such things are more clear in the greek as berry points out, but difficult to render into english without adding clumsy explanatory notes into the New Testament Text (which is why I think translators don't explain it and leave it in a confusing rendering...).

Clear

[katiemygirl]

Originally Posted by Clear lens

KIDS IN AMERICA : It occurred to me that I probably lost most individuals who have no background in greek grammar when attempting to explain WHY I agreed with your important point in post #387 that in Acts 2:47, you correctly pointed out The reference to individuals that "should be saved" is NOT a reference to being saved in the past tense, as in a completed (i.e. perfected) act, but refers instead to a continuance of an act being done (i.e. the "ongoing process" of being saved).

That being said, I simply meant that you were correct. Sorry if I lost anyone. I am as much a neophyte at greek as I am almost everything else. If you want me to, I'll slap myself (but not real hard...).

Clear
fudracsiih

P.S. I do think it would be an interesting project to see if other references to the use of the word "saved" in the Textus Receptus based bibles are used in the sense "being or becoming saved" in the sense of a process (since such things are more clear in the greek as berry points out, but difficult to render into english without adding clumsy explanatory notes into the New Testament Text (which is why I think translators don't explain it and leave it in a confusing rendering...).

Clear

Clear, I don't think I disagree with what you are saying, and I also think that we are closer in thinking than either of us realize. I just don't think I'm expressing myself clearly. One thing I can say with all certainty though. I do not believe in the direct operation of the Holy Spirit on the sinner's heart. If that were the case then we wouldn't need preachers or Bibles. Faith comes by hearing the word of God. I do believe the HS guides us, leads us, and convicts us through His inspired Word. I also believe He intercedes for us when we pray. But I can find no scriptures to support what you say, that he plays a much bigger role in our lives. I'm wondering if you know of any scriptures? I'm one of those people who needs to see scriptures or I'm not likely to buy into something. That may have to do with my catholic upbringing. I felt like they sold me a bill of goods, and now I don't believe anything unless I can see it written in the Bible. Does this make sense? As for what Kids said, and what you said, I agree. Salvation is an ongoing process and we aren't saved until we die.

Kate

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by katiemygirl

One thing I can say with all certainty though. I do not believe in the direct operation of the Holy Spirit on the sinner's heart. If that were the case then we wouldn't need preachers or Bibles.

1 John 2:27 (King James Version)

27But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him.

2 Corinthians 3: 2-6 (King James Version)

2Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

3Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

4And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:

5Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

[Clear lens]

POST #396

1) REGARDING THE OPERATIONS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT THROUGHOUT THE WORLD

1)

Katiemygirl mentions in post #394 : “One thing I can say with all certainty though. I do not believe in the direct operation of the Holy Spirit on the sinner's heart. If that were the case then we wouldn't need preachers or Bibles. Faith comes by hearing the word of God".

I get the feeling that you would like me to equivocate on this principle Katiemygirl, I cannot. I am sure the spirit of God DOES attempt to influence sinners as well as the righteous (albeit in different ways and degrees). I have simply experienced the spirit in my life in many ways (both directing and, at times, convicting me) and I AM a sinner katiemygirl. If you need an example of a spiritual experience when the spirit let me know this, I'd be happy to provide one as an example.

The apostle Peter’s colleague Clement taught that “The Spirit of the Lord is a lamp searching the depths of the heart.” (Prov 20:27 & 1st Clement 21:1) It is a necessary and important insight for the christian to look at those depths, and having been unshod of pride; see a need to change. The Holy Spirit can point out both the needed change and the new moral direction that is needed.


I think your logic regarding the need for preachers and bibles is backwards and you are letting the tail wag the dog. Authentic Christian preachers, are themselves, dependent upon the spirit for the most profound insight and understanding and teachings. The spirit is NOT dependent upon the preacher to any degree whatsoever. Authentic preachers anciently did not simply make speeches for public consumption as many modern preachers, but rather it was by the spirit that the gospel was ministered and 1 Pet. 1:12 described that they “...preached the gospel unto you with the holy Ghost”. There is a difference between “hired religious guns” who speak for money and the “... men of God spake as they were moved by the holy ghost”. (2 pet 1:21).

One logia of Jesus has Jesus asking “why have you come out into the desert? To see a reed shaken by the wind? And to see a man clothed in fine garments like your kings and your great men? Upon them are the fine garments, and they are unable to discern the truth.” (GOSPEL OF THOMAS vs 78)


The same principle of dependence is true of the various biblical texts. For example, the revelations given the apostles and early judao-christians issue from the Holy spirit as their very source. The Holy Ghost is an authentic SOURCE, of revelation which sacred history "sacred". Without revelation and signs and moral changes, it's simply "history". Thus it was said that “ Well spake the H.G. by Esaias the prophet” (act 28:25).

The Prophet Ezra doesn’t simply start writing down the religious history of his age but he asks God to give him the Holy Spirit as a help and guide in this task, saying “If then I have found favor before you, send the Holy Spirit to me, and I will write everything that has happened in the world from the beginning, the things which were written in your Law, that men may be able to find the path, and that those who wish to live in the last days may live.” (Fourth Book of Ezra 14:22)


The writers of sacred texts describing these experiences, were, to a great degree, dependent upon the spirit in terms of editing what history details were to be left in and what was left out of biblical records. The nature of the narrative itself, benefits from inspiration of the spirit. The reader too, in accomplishing a greater degree of sanctification, is dependent upon the spirit for the most profound insights, since the most profound information and insights are given by revelation rather than simple logic, or archealogical agreements, or historical interests.

The early writers of early versions of biblical texts were dependent to some extent upon the operation of the spirit as well. For example: the religious importance of the book of acts depends to a certain degree on the extent that it accurately describes the influence of God’s spirit upon individuals. The importance of God's Holy Spirit and it’s effects upon men is independent of the biblical record. Even without the existence of a bible, the importance of God's spirit is immeasurable. WITH the spirit, more sacred records can be generated. The text is dependent upon the spirit and NOT the other way around.

Though the bible does exist, greater understanding of it is not to be had without the inspiration of the spirit.

The readers as well, have less hope of making sense and coming to a correct understanding by their own devices as they will when influenced by the illuminating influence of the spirit. In Jubilees the text described the young convert Abraham, who is given understanding of some of the early sacred texts as he is learning about the true God. “And he took his father’s books – and they were written in Hebrew – and he copied them. And he began studying them thereafter. And I caused him to know everything which he was unable (to understand). Jubilees (the book of division) 12:72;

Katiemygirl remarked in post #394 : I do believe the HS guides us, leads us, and convicts us through His inspired Word. I also believe He intercedes for us when we pray. But I can find no scriptures to support what you say, that he plays a much bigger role in our lives.

You speak of guidance by the spirit; his leadership in our lives and his ability to motivate us in specific directions (which all are involved in sanctifying us) as though they are not critical moral influences. They are THE critical influences.

The ancient Christians said that the “love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the holy Ghost.. (Rom. 5:5 ). If part of the process of sanctification is that we finally learn to overcome pettiness and learn to love, then the holy ghost was and is an important influence in our having learned this critical characteristic.

If mankind IS to learn moral laws by which they ultimately are able to understand and live social rules by which they can live in social harmony and peace and joy forever, there must be a mechanism for them to learn these things. When Nehemiah said that God “gavest also thy spirit to instruct them (israel) (Neh 9:20), this was no small gift. Not only did the “spirit in thy prophets” testify against israel, but “he will reprove the world of sin” (jn 16:8). He is not merely reproving men but is putting his spirit within them to “cause [them] to walk in my statutes”

The holy spirit endows one with knowledge and understanding and judgment to guide us just as it endowed Micah to be “full of power by the spirit of the LORD”. If Micah’s judgment is enhanced by the spirit, then why would one suppose that the spirit could not cause the same effect in other men?

When the disciples were to be brought before men, they were told that “...the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.” (Luke 12:12). We do not assume that the disciples could not think of something to say on their own, but that the spirit would teach them WHAT THEY OUGHT TO SAY, (not necessarily what they might have said on their own). Preachers, without the spirit, OFTEN say things they ought NOT to say.

It is not merely needed reprovals which come from the spirit (we occasionally need to be “pricked in [our own] heart[s] (acts 2:37), nor does the spirit simply teach what we should say, or give us judgement and understanding, but “...the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”

To be taught “all things” is not unimportant, it is one of the critical things of becoming what it is that God wants us to become in eternity. The promise is that “he will guide you into all truth... and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. (Jn 16:13-14) .

In authentic christianity they found the greatest value in speaking (and teaching) things that were “not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the holy Ghost teacheth (1 Cor 2:13) The Odes of Solomon describe the authentic influence of the spirit as it coordinates and guides in subtle ways so as to accomplish God’s purposes anciently : “As the [wind] moves through the harp and the strings speak, 2 So the spirit of the Lord speaks through my members, and I speak through his love....7 and his praise he gave us on account of his name; our spirits praise his Holy Spirit. (Odes of Solomon #6 1-2, 7)

Even the leader (instructor) of the Dead Sea Scroll community realizes his understanding is less dependent upon vast numbers of memorized scriptures or canned reponses, but instead, his deepest insights and understanding is dependent upon the Holy Spirit.

“And I, the instructor, have known you, O my God, by the spirit which you gave me, and I have listened faithfully to your wondrous council by your holy spirit. You have opened within me knowledge in the mystery of Your insight, and a spring of [Your] strength...” THANKSGIVING PSALMS - Frags. 10, 24, 42 + 4Q427 Frag. 3 Col. 20:11-13

The same is true of us.

“According to my knowledge I speak. But I am mere spit (?), a vessel of clay, what shall I speak unless You open my mouth? How shall I understand unless you give me insight? What shall I say unless You reveal it to my heart? THANKSGIVING PSALMS - Frags. 10, 24, 42 + 4Q427 Frag. 3 Col. 20:32-34

In describing the differences between the spirit of the Devil and the Holy Spirit of God, the Qumran texts describe the spirit of the devil as sharing “but a single resolve” which is “to cause the Sons of light to stumble.”. However, of the spirit of God and of God’s servants, the influence and operations are described thusly :

Upon earth their operations are these; one enlightens a man’s mind, making straight before him the paths of true righteousness and causing his heart to fear the laws of God. This spirit engenders humility, patience, abundant compassion, perpetual goodness, insight, understanding, and powerful wisdom resonating to each of God’s deeds, sustained by his constant faithfulness. It engenders a spirit knowledgeable in every plan of action, zealous for the laws of righteousness, holy in its thoughts, and steadfast in purpose. This spirit encourages plenteous compassion upon all who hold fast to truth, and glorious purity combined with visceral hatred of impurity in its every guise. It results in humble deportment allied with a general discernment, concealing the truth, that is, the mysteries of knowledge. To these ends is the earthly counsel of the spirit to those whose nature yearns for truth. (DESCRIPTION OF SPIRITS OF LIGHT AND OF DARKNESS CHARTER OF A JEWISH SECTARIAN ASSOCIATION 1QS, 4Q255-264a, 5Q11

katiemygirl remarked in post #394 “As for what Kids said, and what you said, I agree. Salvation is an ongoing process and we aren't saved until we die.

Thank you for this comment. I hope that I can be as gracious as I find doctrines that are more clear and obvious and more correct that my current beliefs and subsequently need to modify my way of thinking and beliefs. (hopefully this will occur often as I interact on this forum)


Clear

fusieineen

p.s. kids in america : I did study all pertinent occurrances of the translated word "saved" in textus receptus based new testament and you actually were quite correct (even I was a bit surprised). The incident of a blind man given vision was translated in KJV as "saved", but this is a mis-translation that is rendered variously as "healed", etc, in other versions. I didn't post this info since i don't think many of the readers are interested in those things. Thanks for piquing my interest.

[kids in america_]

Originally Posted by Clear lens

p.s. kids in america : I did study all pertinent occurrances of the translated word "saved" in textus receptus based new testament and you actually were quite correct (even I was a bit surprised). The incident of a blind man given vision was translated in KJV as "saved", but this is a mis-translation that is rendered variously as "healed", etc, in other versions. I didn't post this info since i don't think many of the readers are interested in those things. Thanks for piquing my interest.

Well, you're welcome!

The Greek is in the 'aorist tense' and it is present progressive. All we have are those who are “being saved”. That is why Jesus emphasizes to only those "who endure to the end shall be saved." I agree this would make an interesting topic on its own.

[AlabamaStorm]

Originally Posted by kids in america_

Well, you're welcome!

The Greek is in the 'aorist tense' and it is present progressive. All we have are those who are “being saved”. That is why Jesus emphasizes to only those "who endure to the end shall be saved." I agree this would make an interesting topic on its own.

Actually, there are cases of the word "saved" in the Greek perfect tense, usually translated as " have saved", etc. This usually is translated as a past tense event in our English translations. Here are some examples:

Luk 7:50 and he said unto the woman, `Thy faith have saved thee, be going on to peace.' [Greek σεσωκεν]

Eph 2:5 even being dead in the trespasses, did make us to live together with the Christ, (by grace ye are having been saved,) [Greek: σεσωσμενοι]

Eph 2:8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you--of God the gift, [Greek σεσωσμενοι]

And here is a case of a person passing from death to life already:

Joh 5:24 `Verily, verily, I say to you--He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life.

The word μεταβεβηκεν translated as "passed" is in the Greek perfect tense.

I think you're right though about what it means to be "saved". Does it mean simply regeneration, or does it mean our active sanctification process, or rather our final glory with Christ when all is said and done? I suppose it really comes down to what you mean when using the word "saved". Right?

[AlabamaStorm]

Originally Posted by Clear lens

.... If you need an example of a spiritual experience when the spirit let me know this, I'd be happy to provide one as an example....

Lots of good stuff in there Clear. However, one of the things we should guard against is our eagerness to look at our "experiences" or "gifts" of the Spirit to validate what the Gospel proclaims to us. Jesus warns against doing this:

Luk 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Luk 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Luk 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

[AlabamaStorm]

Originally Posted by DXCC

Baptism is the time and place when the blood of Christ covers our sins by the grace of God. And not the water that saves. Acts 2:38

No amount of argument can invalidate the truth that His blood and His grace are appropriated through the agency of water in baptism in obedience to God's command .

Sorry for taking so long to get back to this thread....

Actually, scripture tells us that Christ by Himself purges our sins:

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

The phrase "by himself" should make it clear as to when and by whom our sins were purged.

I guess it's not clear to me what you mean by the word "appropriated".

Are you speaking of when it becomes known to us that our sins are purged?

I think we become aware of it when we believe the Gospel. This awareness (or appropriation??) comes to those who believe the Gospel. It comes with power, in the Spirit and with much assurance:

1Th 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

Very few believe the Gospel today, and perhaps the reason this knowledge is not "experienced" or appropriated.

Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Some even forget their old sins were purged:

2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.