Mark 16:15-16 DID JESUS SAY IT? (abomination, marriage, sex, Corinthians)

[atomtkirk]

Originally Posted by Justplainjoe

So then if I understand your argument, Jesus is not enough to be saved, one must also get dunked in water? May I ask what other rituals or beliefs must be performed in order to be saved? What exactly are the steps?

allow me to quote what i just wrote:

If you place all your hope in baptism, you miss the mark. I am only stating that the bible states that Salvation is in Christ.

The steps are Hearing the Gospel... you gotta do that.
Believing the Gospel... You gotta do that.
Repenting of your sins... You gotta do that.
Confessing Jesus is the Son of God... You gotta do that.
Baptism for the remission of Sins... You gotta do that.

Remaining faithful. Doing the will of the Father. Studying to show yourself approved. Not being ashamed of Jesus. Seeking after truth. Desiring the sincere milk of the word. all these things are necessary to please God and be a good and faithful servant.

Baptism is not getting dunked under water. That's what kids do to each other in a pool during the summer. Baptism is so much more than that.

[atomtkirk]

Originally Posted by Justplainjoe

Please stop misrepresenting my argument. I BELIEVE completely in baptism. I simply do not believe that one MUST have it to be saved.

I do believe it is necessary based on the scriptures i quoted earlier.

I am not misrepresenting your argument. I don't understand it, but i'm not misrepresenting it. I'm quoting the Bible.

[katiemygirl]

JUST PLAIN JOE

Hi. Thanks for your posts.

My computer is in the shop so I'm having to use my cell phone to post. I'll have to keep it short. May I ask you some questions about several passages?

In Romans 6:3-7, does it not say we are set free from sin when we are baptized?
Does it not say we are set free from sin when we are baptized in Colossians 2:11-13?
In Ephesians 2, Romans 6, and Colossians 2, does it not say we are made alive in Christ? And does it not say this happens when we are baptized?

One more thing.....the water in and of itself has no saving power, but I believe 1 Peter 3:21 says we are saved "through" water......not by water.....same as Noah and his family. If baptism now saves you doesn't mean baptism now saves you, then what does it mean?
Katie

[DXCC]

Originally Posted by Justplainjoe

Yes, there IS example of people being converted THEN baptized you are absolutely correct just as I am that there are people who are not baptized and they are saved. It is not that I am against baptism, not at all. I simply believe it is the declaration of ones repentence and conversion, it is not the conversion and does not save anyone in and of itself.

Please show me chapter and verse in the New Testament - From book of Act forward to now, were anyone was saved before and without being immersed.

DXCC

[DXCC]

Originally Posted by Justplainjoe

So then if I understand your argument, Jesus is not enough to be saved, one must also get dunked in water? May I ask what other rituals or beliefs must be performed in order to be saved? What exactly are the steps?

We Believe we are saved by the blood of Christ

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace

Col. 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.

We believe that are sins are forgiven by God's grace .

Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:it is a gift of God:

water baptism dose not negate the blood and the grace of God.

It is the means through which both are appropriated .

1Peter 3:20 Who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Saved through water

They were not saved by water nor in water nor from water . They were saved through water.

baptism is the time and place where the blood of Christ covers our sins by the grace of God.

and not the water that saves.

But no amount of argumentation can invalidate the truth the His blood and His grace are appropriated through the agency of water in baptism in obedience to God's command.

2Thessalonians 1:8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

How do you obey the gospel ? You obey the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ - By Romans 6:3-7

Rom.6:3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into is death? 4 We were therefor buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin- 7 because anyone who has died has been freed form sin.

How do you get your sins forgiven ?

Acts 2:38 Peter replied " Repent and be baptized , every one of you , in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

DXCC

[DXCC]

Originally Posted by Justplainjoe

Please stop misrepresenting my argument. I BELIEVE completely in baptism. I simply do not believe that one MUST have it to be saved.

half a truth is a full lie !

You believe completely in baptism but not that one must have it to be saved.

this is like saying to me : that you do not believe in Acts 2:38 ?

Or Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized will be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. ( Jesus Speaking ) KJV

So Joe , you are saying you do not believe what Jesus is saying in Mark 16:16 ?

[Justplainjoe]

My argument is not against baptism, my argument is that it is absurd to believe that jumping in water and having someone say some incantation saves your soul. I believe that baptism IS for the public declaration of repentence in ordinary cases. However, why was Jesus baptized? Was John saving his soul???? What could John have said or done to make the water save Jesus??? nothing.

Believer's baptism is taught in the New Testament as being a symbol or a picture of what has happened in the life of the person who by faith has believed in Jesus Christ and been saved by His grace. It is an illustration of what that has taken place in the new believer's heart which cannot be outwardly observed when a person is saved. Baptism is further a testimony by which the new Christian gives public testimony that they have believed in Jesus Christ and have been born again. Through baptism the new convert is joining, identifying themselves as Christians, and becoming a member of a local New Testament church.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8 9)

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." (Romans 3:24 26)

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." (Romans 10:9 11).

Saved without baptism?

[Justplainjoe]

Is there Salvation without baptism?

Many teach that the answer, in every case, is a resounding, 'NO!' Referring to Scripture verses such as John 3:5 & Mar 16:16, it is maintained that unless a person is baptized they cannot be saved. There are a great deal of biblical contradictions this belief would generate IF it were true.
- We find the following account of one of the thieves crucified with Jesus in the Gospel of Luke (23:42-43), - - "And he said to Jesus, Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom. And Jesus said to him, 'Truly I say to you, Today you shall be with Me in Paradise." Without a doubt, the thief received the gift of Salvation. There was no water baptism; but there was an 'immersion' in Jesus Christ through belief.
- The Bible teaches that salvation is an act of God.- - "For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."
(Eph 2:8-9)
- "So then it is not of the one willing, nor of the one running, but of God, the One showing mercy."
(Rom 9:16)This contention would relegate Jesus' sacrifice on the cross to merely being an adjunct to baptism.
The belief that baptism is an absolute necessity for salvation presents a very grave contradiction to Scriptural teaching, which teaches that salvation is by God's Sovereign Grace. Since water Baptism is something that man chooses, it is an act of man. To believe, and teach, that 'you must be baptized to obtain salvation' makes salvation an act of man, not of God! This in effect, proclaims that man is more powerful than his Creator!
We also find the following Biblical verses, in Acts 10:44-45
- "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all those hearing the Word. And those of the circumcision, who believed (as many as came with Peter), were astonished because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out on the nations also."
And Eph 1:13
- - "-in whom also you, hearing the Word of Truth, the gospel of our salvation, in whom also believing, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise-"
The teaching is clear, 'the Spirit quickens + you hear the Word + you believe the Word = You are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Which according to 1Co 3:16 means, - "Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?"

To contend that without baptism there is no salvation again raises serious contradictions to the Bible's teaching. As already established, water baptism is an act of man. If there were no salvation without water baptism, it again would make man more powerful than his Creator, Almighty God. It would mean that man has the power to remove the seal placed on him by God and that man has the power to evict the Holy Spirit. For further study on what the Bible teaches about the act of being saved visit The Biblical Process of Salvation and Acts 10, Cornelius & his household. It would belittle the pain, suffering, death, amp; resurrection of Jesus Christ. baptism is necessary for salvation, it would mean that Jesus' sacrifice was not sufficient to grant salvation.(Christian Baptism, what the Bible teaches.)

[atomtkirk]

Originally Posted by Justplainjoe

My argument is not against baptism, my argument is that it is absurd to believe that jumping in water and having someone say some incantation saves your soul. I believe that baptism IS for the public declaration of repentence in ordinary cases. However, why was Jesus baptized? Was John saving his soul???? What could John have said or done to make the water save Jesus??? nothing.

Believer's baptism is taught in the New Testament as being a symbol or a picture of what has happened in the life of the person who by faith has believed in Jesus Christ and been saved by His grace. It is an illustration of what that has taken place in the new believer's heart which cannot be outwardly observed when a person is saved. Baptism is further a testimony by which the new Christian gives public testimony that they have believed in Jesus Christ and have been born again. Through baptism the new convert is joining, identifying themselves as Christians, and becoming a member of a local New Testament church.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8 9)

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." (Romans 3:24 26)

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." (Romans 10:9 11).

Saved without baptism?

joe... those scriptures... I believe them. they don't contradict what i'm saying. why will you not respond to the scriptures I posted earlier? Romans 3:24-26 where it says IN CHRIST... that's what i said days ago. Salvation is IN CHRIST. Baptism is no more necessary than repentance for example...

But Joe... the same guy who wrote Romans 3:24-26 and Romans 10: 9-11 wrote Romans 6 too... I have already said, in my previous posts those STEPS (which you asked me for) and believing and confessing are on that list... but so is baptism.

Now i will admit... if the book of romans, and the N.T. itself was comprised solely of those scriptures you've mentioned, baptism would not be necessary. but the N.T. is full of examples of those who believe, repent, and confess- being baptized. Quote romans 3. Quote romans 10. I believe them both. but as i said, they do not contradict what I believe.

Do the scriptures I quoted earlier, contradict what you believe? If they do or do not, please explain.

I look forward to hearing from you.

[atomtkirk]

Is there Salvation without baptism? good question.

- We find the following account of one of the thieves crucified with Jesus in the Gospel of Luke (23:42-43), - - "And he said to Jesus, Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom. And Jesus said to him, 'Truly I say to you, Today you shall be with Me in Paradise." Without a doubt, the thief received the gift of Salvation. There was no water baptism; but there was an 'immersion' in Jesus Christ through belief.

Joe... Jesus is the son of God. we agree on that. I'm gonna say something and if you don't agree with this please let me know: If Jesus, after hearing this man's words about him, after knowing his heart, made a loving act of saving him--- knowing the man was in the process of being murdered for crimes he had committed, Don't you think he had the authority to do it? Don't you think that the son of God, at the end of the his Physical existence where he served as a teacher and example to us, looked at this man and decided that if he had been given an opportunity(if he wasn't in the act of being killed) would have turned his life around and lived for righteousness, ---IF he'd had done this, wouldn't he have the authority to do so?

And go back to my previous post #447 and read the passage from Colossians 2... paying particular attention to the end of verse 13 forward.

there was a problem with the old covenant, not the least of which was that Israel didn't go along with it. but another problem with it was there was NO way to cleanse the conscience of the transgressor (read verse 14... no wait...read the whole chapter... but pay particular attention to the end of 13 on...) before the new covenant... sins were forgiven on a 'passing over' basis. through Christ we have actual redemption. romans 3:23 - 24

another thing... when Christ spoke to the thief on the cross... The old law was still in effect. John's baptism. not for the forgiveness of sins. The new covenant did not go into effect until AFTER Christ died.*****

Hebrews chapter 9 speaks of this without verbal clutter. 15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. 17 For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives. 18 Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood.

The thief was saved because Christ had the authority. This was already established. This point should not even be brought up with regard to Baptism. The lame man who Christ forgave of his sins and then the Pharisees said he was blaspheming... Christ said which is easier to say, your sins are forgiven or get up and walk? and he healed him so that they might know that he had the ability to forgive sins. its in matthew. one of the gospels...

This is simply a matter of some not knowing Jesus' power. or knowing and then putting limits on his Power. if Jesus wanted to forgive both the thieves... even if the other one wasn't sorry, he could have. All things are possible with Him.


- The Bible teaches that salvation is an act of God.- - "For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."
(Eph 2:8-9)

Romans 3: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus
you still have to do the things that make God happy. not everyone that says lord lord (say they believe in God) will enter the kingdom of heaven...but he that doth the will of the father (be obedient).

we dont' partake of the redemption which is in Christ Jesus JUST because God is a nice person. WE have to do what he wishes. We have to be IN Christ.

I will respond to the rest of your points later, when i have the time to give them their due attention. stay with me on this...


- "So then it is not of the one willing, nor of the one running, but of God, the One showing mercy."
(Rom 9:16)This contention would relegate Jesus' sacrifice on the cross to merely being an adjunct to baptism.
The belief that baptism is an absolute necessity for salvation presents a very grave contradiction to Scriptural teaching, which teaches that salvation is by God's Sovereign Grace. Since water Baptism is something that man chooses, it is an act of man. To believe, and teach, that 'you must be baptized to obtain salvation' makes salvation an act of man, not of God! This in effect, proclaims that man is more powerful than his Creator!
We also find the following Biblical verses, in Acts 10:44-45
- "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all those hearing the Word. And those of the circumcision, who believed (as many as came with Peter), were astonished because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out on the nations also."
And Eph 1:13
- - "-in whom also you, hearing the Word of Truth, the gospel of our salvation, in whom also believing, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise-"
The teaching is clear, 'the Spirit quickens + you hear the Word + you believe the Word = You are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Which according to 1Co 3:16 means, - "Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?"

To contend that without baptism there is no salvation again raises serious contradictions to the Bible's teaching. As already established, water baptism is an act of man. If there were no salvation without water baptism, it again would make man more powerful than his Creator, Almighty God. It would mean that man has the power to remove the seal placed on him by God and that man has the power to evict the Holy Spirit. For further study on what the Bible teaches about the act of being saved visit The Biblical Process of Salvation and Acts 10, Cornelius & his household. It would belittle the pain, suffering, death, amp; resurrection of Jesus Christ. baptism is necessary for salvation, it would mean that Jesus' sacrifice was not sufficient to grant salvation.(Christian Baptism, what the Bible teaches.)