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Verna Perry asked : “...you mind my asking what that "everything it was supposed to accomplish" is? Katzpur...?...if not any of the one's I listed in the above post?”
Katzpur responded : “My baptism was the means by which I entered into a covenant relationship with my Savior. As long as I keep the terms of the covenant, repenting whenever I fall short, I have His promise that He will be my advocate with the Father and that I will attain eternal life in God's presence. He doesn't ask for perfection, but He asks for the best I have to give. That's what I'm giving.”
katzpur, I second antredds comments on your post. I think your answer was quite profound and descriptive of the relationship baptism had to the process repentance in early christianity. (As opposed to Verna’s mixed and arbitrary definitions of repentance).
The early Christian didache described these principles in almost the same terms you used :
Quote:
“If you are able to bear the whole yoke of the Lord, you will be perfect. But if you are not able, then do what you can.” (The Didache 6:2)
This principle of “be as obedient as you are able” is all that be expected of anyone in terms of obedience. “If anyone is holy, let him come; if anyone is not, let him repent.” (Didache 10:6)
Kudo’s to you Katzpur for correct historical context and understanding (and common sense regarding what repentance is and how it applies to imperfect individuals).
Clear
Last edited by Clear lens; 05-08-2011 at 10:51 PM..
Salvation is the only subject where there can be no compromise of doctrine.
Conversion is linked with repentance. True repentance is a covenant with God to cease from all known sin completely and forever, with the mind that even if it were to cost you your life to obey, you would do it.
Repentance is a one time event, and that one must cease from willful sin completely and forever in order to "live".
If a man commits sin, he has not truly repented in the first place, or, if he has repented, and turns back by committing deliberate/willfull sin "in the day that he sinneth" he shall not live.
If you are having to sin and repent and and repent sin and repent sin and repent sin and repent...etc...etc...ect...you have not truly repented. You are playing games...and you are not keeping any kind of "terms" that make up the Covenant of Promises between God and His own.
No such thing as a "sinning saint."
You know what, Verna? You and I don't see eye-to-eye on this and it doesn't bother me one bit. If I let the opinions of strangers on the internet keep me awake with worry at night, I wouldn't have had an decent night's sleep since I started participating on forums like this one ten years ago. You see, when I stand before my Father in Heaven to be judged, He isn't going to ask your opinion. My life, my beliefs, my thoughts and my actions are totally between Him and me and I am absolutely confident that He is pleased with how I'm doing. But thanks for your concern.
You know what, Verna? You and I don't see eye-to-eye on this and it doesn't bother me one bit. If I let the opinions of strangers on the internet keep me awake with worry at night, I wouldn't have had an decent night's sleep since I started participating on forums like this one ten years ago. You see, when I stand before my Father in Heaven to be judged, He isn't going to ask your opinion. My life, my beliefs, my thoughts and my actions are totally between Him and me and I am absolutely confident that He is pleased with how I'm doing. But thanks for your concern.
O.K. Katzpur, you're correct...you will be standing alone with no excuses...no one to blame...as we all will...so be it. Your blood will not be on my hands, for I have tried. Remember this one thing though...as we die, we remain that person...so if we die transgressing any of the Ten Commandments...willfully...knowingly...we will NOT enter into the Kingdom of God...we will NOT receive LIFE. Remember that.
For those who do want to learn what true repentance is though...this is for you...
Following are the verses in Ezekiel which prove that repentance is a one time event, and that one must cease from willful sin completely and forever in order to "live".
EZE 18:9 [He that] HATH WALKED in my statutes, and HATH KEPT my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God.
EZE 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from ALL his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
EZE 18:24 But WHEN the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and COMMITTETH INIQUITY, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them SHALL HE DIE.
.
EZE 18:27 Again, WHEN the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and DOETH that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and TURNETH AWAY FROM ALL his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
EZE 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. REPENT, and turn yourselves from ALL YOUR TRANSGRESSIONS; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you ALL your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
EZE 33:12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby IN THE DAY THAT HE TURNETH from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness IN THE DAY THAT HE SINNETH.
EZE 33:14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he TURN FROM HIS SIN, and do that which is lawful and right;
15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, WITHOUT COMMITTING INIQUITY; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
EZE 3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous SIN NOT, and HE DOTH NOT SIN, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.
The last two verses make clear what Yahweh meant in the previous verses. "Sin not...doth not sin...without committing iniquity" These are all absolutes; sin not means "not ever". Repentance is truly done only once, (notice the "in the day that he turneth" in 33:12 above.)
If a man commits sin, he has not truly repented in the first place, or
if he has repented and turns back by committing deliberate sin "in the day that he sinneth" he shall not live.
Paul taught the same thing in Hebrew 10:26 when he said:
"For if we SIN WILFULLY after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
You can see that same idea of only one true repentance in Hebrews 6:4
"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
True repentance is true enlightenment...a true tasting of the good word of God and the powers to come...to fall away after this is to put to God an open shame. If you still willfully sin (transgress the law of God, the Ten Commandments), you are lost and you will not enter into His Kingdom.
...and Katspur...I do care very much for you. May God bless you.
Salvation is the only subject where there can be no compromise of doctrine.
Conversion is linked with repentance. True repentance is a covenant with God to cease from all known sin completely and forever, with the mind that even if it were to cost you your life to obey, you would do it.
Repentance is a one time event, and that one must cease from willful sin completely and forever in order to "live".
If a man commits sin, he has not truly repented in the first place, or, if he has repented, and turns back by committing deliberate/willfull sin "in the day that he sinneth" he shall not live.
If you are having to sin and repent and and repent sin and repent sin and repent sin and repent...etc...etc...ect...you have not truly repented. You are playing games...and you are not keeping any kind of "terms" that make up the Covenant of Promises between God and His own.
No such thing as a "sinning saint."
Verna, you are saying that once we are born again we can never ever sin again. That would make us perfect human beings. That is an impossible task. Everyone sins. As long as we go to God, ask forgiveness, and turn from our sin, we are made right by the blood of Jesus.
Now Verna if I understand correctly what you have written, you consider yourself perfect. Right? You never ever fall short. Please correct me if I have misread you.
Verna, you are saying that once we are born again we can never ever sin again.
...we can never sin again...WILLFULLY...WILLFULLY.
Did you read my post just above to Katzpur? If so, did you pass over this passage in Ezekiel?...
EZE 18:24 But WHEN the righteous [those who have truly repented and turned once and for all time AWAY! from their sin] turneth away from his righteousness, and COMMITTETH INIQUITY [committ sin - transgress any one of the Ten Commandments], and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them SHALL HE DIE.
...again...
All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them SHALL HE DIE.
You say you take every word of God literally...how on earth do you slide past this with any other kind of understanding than what it specifically says?
You...like everyone else who proclaims to be a believer...a Christian...a born again Christian...who do not keep the Commandments of God INCLUDING! the FOURTH ONE! - To REMEMBER to keep the seventh day Sabbath holy unto God, unfortunately, are victims of the false teachings of Modern Day Christianity...which has been taught now for generations...they are nothing but the "traditions of man"...and this false teachings will lead you and so many others to their very destruction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
That would make us perfect human beings. That is an impossible task. Everyone sins. As long as we go to God, ask forgiveness, and turn from our sin, we are made right by the blood of Jesus.
...so God is a liar huh?...re-read Ezekiel 18:24 again (above).
...so...God expects something of His children He knows we cannot perform successfully...? Then leave the entire Bible on the coffee table as a dust collector. It has no other good purpose for you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
Now Verna if I understand correctly what you have written, you consider yourself perfect. Right?
If you got this message from me, that I consider myself "perfect", from ALL that I have ever written....I just don't know what to say to you...except you ARE SO VERY WRONG.
What I DO consider myself as, is a person who has given all of her heart...mind...and strength to follow the Ten Commandments of God. I am a seventh day [Saturday] Sabbath Keeper. I do NOT! transgress the law of God. Therefore I do not sin against His Commands. I am sure every day I sin somehow against what He calls perfection...but I do not do them consciously...as lee said...we sin everyday unknowingly...these are the type of sins that are forgiven..but sin willfully?...WILLINGLY?...with forethought?...you are a child of the devil and not a child of God...and you are NOT a truly repentant, born again, changed into the character of Christ, Christian. IT IS WRITTEN Katie...Thus saith the LORD God Almighty!
You cannot have it both ways...lukewarm...fence rider...bile in the mouth of God. Not good.
Thus a water baptism does not change people...not one iota...most every professing Christian today is water baptised...and they go on to sinning willfully just as they did prior to their "dip".
An honest to goodness, born again, child of God...born of God...in the Spirit of Christ, is NOT a willfull sinner!
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
You never ever fall short. Please correct me if I have misread you.
Katie
I am sure I do...but not knowingly...and because I am His child...truly repentant...truly born again...truly changed...His grace and His mercy is truly sufficient for me...every day.
Katie...re-read my post to Katzpur...with the explanation of TRUE REPENTANCE...with your heart of hearts...then come back and lets talk.
God Bless you, in His truth,
Verna.
Last edited by Verna Perry; 05-09-2011 at 09:30 AM..
O.K. Katzpur, you're correct...you will be standing alone with no excuses...no one to blame...as we all will...so be it. Your blood will not be on my hands, for I have tried.
I won't be alone, Verna. Jesus Christ will be right by me. What more could I ask for?
It's rather interesting to read when people are attempting to gain salvation through obedience of the commands trying out do one another.
Romans 3:27
Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith.
Jesus won't be on the side of anybody who attempts to gain salvation through the law. The law demands (not suggests) "be perfect" \ "be holy" . Rather than a happy God...you're going to face a God of wrath.
God revealed that those who attempt to gain eternal life through the law will fall short. This isn't like toilet training .... God doesn't accept less than perfect aim.
Just go on ahead...keep fooling yourselves.
Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.
Romans 3:20
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
While you're looking at Mk 16:16 and John 3:36, look at Lk 7:29-30. I'd like your take on that.
I'm not disagreeing with you about damnation being due to rejection of God. But don't you feel that unbelief and disobedience fall into the rejection category?
Katie
Katie...
Lk 7:29-30 .....
It is the motive on why one doesn't get baptized for one to be considered in one catagory over another.
I would say that the focus is on the rejection of "Jesus’ words". The Pharisee's and experts of the law rejection was due to they didn't believe in John's message of repentance\pointing to Jesus as the Messiah that was promised to come.
Subsequently since the Pharisee's and experts of the law do not see the need for salvation being offered by grace, having sins washed away by God, they chose not be baptized. Much like our experts of the law here on CD...it's either salvation by grace or salvation through the law.
Unbelief is rejection, so only it is natural then that a person will be disobedient. For the unbeliever, that person is without faith. And without faith it is impossible to please God. To attempt to gain salvation through the law like the Pharisee's and experts of the law is to automatically be categorized as "without faith".
------------------------------
On the other side of the argument, believers are disobedient. We believers habitually sin. We who believe in by faith apart form the law really do understand the spirit that God revealed.... it's a check and balance.
We check ourselves against the perfection of what the law demands and acknowledge our faults.
God then balances it with the perfection of Jesus.
Is it unfair ...... absolutly!
Do the Pharisee's and experts of the law understand it .... no.
Do the Pharisee's and experts of the law believe it ......... no.
Does God ever save the Pharisee's and experts of the law .... no.
katzpur, I second antredds comments on your post. I think your answer was quite profound and descriptive of the relationship baptism had to the process repentance in early christianity. (As opposed to Verna’s mixed and arbitrary definitions of repentance).
The early Christian didache described these principles in almost the same terms you used : This principle of “be as obedient as you are able” is all that be expected of anyone in terms of obedience. “If anyone is holy, let him come; if anyone is not, let him repent.” (Didache 10:6)
Kudo’s to you Katzpur for correct historical context and understanding (and common sense regarding what repentance is and how it applies to imperfect individuals).
Clear
I second that Clear and Katz.
Katie
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