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Old 05-03-2011, 01:47 PM
 
12,519 posts, read 6,310,681 times
Reputation: 2082
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Whatever, Mike.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know what evil is. War is evil. Killing is evil. Lying is evil. Deception is evil. Pride is evil. Celebrating death is evil. Hate is evil. Condemning others is evil. Envy is evil. Lust for power is evil.

There's been a lot of evil going on recently.

Christians are called out of the world. "Ecclesia" is the word that is used. "Called out." Not "called in" to participate in bloodshed, but "called OUT" to preach peace and Life through Jesus Christ. You cannot serve God and mammon.


Peace,
brian
David is speaking in Psalms 18:34 ''He (God) trains my hands for battle, So that my arms can bend a bow of bronze.''

God prepares believers for war. When war is legitimate, killing is necessary.

Proverbs 20:18 'Prepare plans by consultation, And make war by wise guidance.'

Ecclesiastes 3:1 'There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every event under heaven...3] a time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to tear down, and a time to build up...8] A time to love, and a time to hate; A time for war, and a time for peace.

The believer must understand the Biblical distinction between the spiritual kingdom on earth today, made up of believers in Jesus Christ, and the earthly kingdom composed of citizens of the national enity. Biblical principles concerning the spiritual kingdom are for the believer only, while Biblical principles concerning the earthly kingdom are for believers and unbelievers alike. Jesus Himself recognized the existence of the two kingdoms and the responsibility of the believer to fulfill his duty to both when He said...''Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things which are God's'' (Matthew 22:21).

The believer has a responsibility first to God, and then to his country, but he must not be confused as to the proper place and function of each.

There should always be a separation of Church and state. However, the true church (believers in the Lord Jesus Christ} should have an influence on the nation, while not seeking to be the state. This means that any religious organization that attempts to be the state, such as the National Counsel of Churches which is involved in internationalism, liberalism, and social action is evil. This does not mean however that a believer cannot run for government office. And it does not mean that a believer has the right to be a conscientious objector. When war is justified, the believer has a responsibility to support his country. If he is soldier, then he has the duty to fight.
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:57 PM
 
12,519 posts, read 6,310,681 times
Reputation: 2082
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
So Christians in Germany were bound by the commands of Paul to obey Hitler and his government, and those Christian Germans who hid the Jews and protected them against the will of their government were in fact sinning against God, according to your warped interpretations ...

We are to obey our governments, so long as their commands to not contradict the commands of Christ. However, it is obvious that many here do not even know Christ in truth nor understand his law of love, nor are they even able to obey his commands because they are hardened and stiff necked, and their hearts are full of violence and hate, as their words plainly demonstrate time and again.

Wicked servants shall be cast into prison and handed over to the correction officers to be beaten with many stripes and will pay until the last penny is spent ...
There is a difference between just war and unjust war. The believers duty is first to God and then to the state. If the state is in opposition to God then the believer must disobey the state. But a just war is of God and the believer is to support his country.
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Old 05-03-2011, 02:03 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 4,197,607 times
Reputation: 870
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
There is a difference between just war and unjust war. The believers duty is first to God and then to the state. If the state is in opposition to God then the believer must disobey the state. But a just war is of God and the believer is to support his country.
I don't believe you even understand the meaning of the word "Just" ... It seems to me that you are simply another fundamentalist religious extremist American imperialist elitist. But that is just my opinion ... So for whatever it is worth, I take everything you say with a grain of salt, as it seems obvious to me that you are a very spiritually violent person.

And i do not intend this as an insult, it is merely my honest observation ... But take it as you will.
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Old 05-03-2011, 02:08 PM
 
12,519 posts, read 6,310,681 times
Reputation: 2082
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shooting Stars View Post
Here is the part I don't understand.

It is human nature to want someone to die who tortured, maimed, and killed another human being.

But supposedly Christians believe that God offers salvation to torturers and murders too.

So, if a Christian really wants to see everyone saved, wouldn't they be against the death penalty just to give the murderer every chance to get saved before they die?

It seems not. I always see Christians calling for the death penalty.
No. You are responsible for your decisions and actions. Those decisions and actions have consequences. If you choose to commit murder, then you must pay the penalty, which in a nation that adheres to Biblical principles is death. If you don't receive Christ as Savior before you are executed, then that too has its consequences. In this case the consequences are eternal.
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Old 05-03-2011, 05:28 PM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
5,992 posts, read 6,852,381 times
Reputation: 2935
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No. You are responsible for your decisions and actions. Those decisions and actions have consequences. If you choose to commit murder, then you must pay the penalty, which in a nation that adheres to Biblical principles is death. If you don't receive Christ as Savior before you are executed, then that too has its consequences. In this case the consequences are eternal.
How is that any different than the non-Christian position? Also, why is it that murderers are beyond God's grace? If a murderer accepts Jesus, the Blood of Christ pays for his sins (including his murders) -- but the repentant murderer still has to die for his sin, which Christ supposedly paid for? Why would God demand that the sin be paid for twice? Where in the Bible do you get that a murderer is beyond grace (and don't mention Genesis 9:6)?

Also, what other sins -- besides murder -- do you believe to be unforgivable?
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Old 05-03-2011, 10:11 PM
 
12,519 posts, read 6,310,681 times
Reputation: 2082
Quote:
Originally Posted by northstar22 View Post
How is that any different than the non-Christian position? Also, why is it that murderers are beyond God's grace? If a murderer accepts Jesus, the Blood of Christ pays for his sins (including his murders) -- but the repentant murderer still has to die for his sin, which Christ supposedly paid for? Why would God demand that the sin be paid for twice? Where in the Bible do you get that a murderer is beyond grace (and don't mention Genesis 9:6)?

Also, what other sins -- besides murder -- do you believe to be unforgivable?
Did I say that a murderer is beyond God's grace? No I did not. But a person who is condemned to die for a crime he has committed had better receive Christ as Savior before he is executed.

You are confusing the fact that Jesus died for the sins of the world so that those who place their trust in Him for eternal salvation have eternal life, with the fact that a person who murders still has to face the penalty imposed on him by law.

Christ's death on the cross does not negate the fact that criminals still have to pay for their crimes.
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Old 05-03-2011, 11:09 PM
 
2,949 posts, read 2,245,174 times
Reputation: 3079
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You are confusing the fact that Jesus died for the sins of the world so that those who place their trust in Him for eternal salvation have eternal life, with the fact that a person who murders still has to face the penalty imposed on him by law.

Christ's death on the cross does not negate the fact that criminals still have to pay for their crimes.
State laws alone determine if there is a death penalty.

So in a state where there is no death penalty, the murderer might have many years left to come to salvation.

Would God prefer to extend their life if it meant they would end up saved? If God desires that all men be saved, then the answer is "Yes".
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Old 05-04-2011, 12:28 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 2,607,769 times
Reputation: 852
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
David is speaking in Psalms 18:34 ''He (God) trains my hands for battle, So that my arms can bend a bow of bronze.''

God prepares believers for war. When war is legitimate, killing is necessary.

Proverbs 20:18 'Prepare plans by consultation, And make war by wise guidance.'

Ecclesiastes 3:1 'There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every event under heaven...3] a time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to tear down, and a time to build up...8] A time to love, and a time to hate; A time for war, and a time for peace.

The believer must understand the Biblical distinction between the spiritual kingdom on earth today, made up of believers in Jesus Christ, and the earthly kingdom composed of citizens of the national enity. Biblical principles concerning the spiritual kingdom are for the believer only, while Biblical principles concerning the earthly kingdom are for believers and unbelievers alike. Jesus Himself recognized the existence of the two kingdoms and the responsibility of the believer to fulfill his duty to both when He said...''Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things which are God's'' (Matthew 22:21).

The believer has a responsibility first to God, and then to his country, but he must not be confused as to the proper place and function of each.

There should always be a separation of Church and state. However, the true church (believers in the Lord Jesus Christ} should have an influence on the nation, while not seeking to be the state. This means that any religious organization that attempts to be the state, such as the National Counsel of Churches which is involved in internationalism, liberalism, and social action is evil. This does not mean however that a believer cannot run for government office. And it does not mean that a believer has the right to be a conscientious objector. When war is justified, the believer has a responsibility to support his country. If he is soldier, then he has the duty to fight.
Really grasping there, Mike..

Christians are CHRISTians; that means follow CHRIST, not Obama, and not even King David. If you want to support your government's activities, then don't tell me you follow Christ, because I don't believe you.

Christianity 101, folks!


Peace,
brian
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Old 05-04-2011, 06:20 AM
 
Location: In the♥of Jesus !
9,562 posts, read 5,102,402 times
Reputation: 17603
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
If you are "offended" that I say that man is not supposed to kill his fellow man, then I don't know how to help you.


Peace,
brian
Brian don't put words into my mouth..... I never once said that it is the right judgment for another man to kill another man.... Those are your thoughts and words !

"Then I don't know how to help you".... ARE you serious ?

Brian, you would be the last person.... no wait, even if you were the only person left in the world..... I would never ask you for help and spiritual guidance..... an individual who hides behind the name of Christ, using the name of Christ for their cowardness and top it off especially one who calls the word of God stale manna and telling other's don't read it, put it down, is the last person God would use to teach his principles of His TRUTH and His LOVE.... no matter how much they protest, yelling peace and love..... !!

I can see it now..... when persecution comes you would be the one sitting by the fire denying you ever knew Him !! Your peace and love is very selfish and thinking about only yourself and not for those who God has called to protect against evil !!

God so knows a coward will never have your back let alone Jesus'...... but they always have an excuse for the reason why they didn't.
Now I can see why that the word of God states a coward will never inherit the kingdom of God.....
Your posting in this thread speaks volumes and the very opposite of the love of God, a man standing in the name of Christ for those, protecting them, women, children, the widow, orphan, etc., against the aggression of evil and wickedness, amen !!
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Old 05-04-2011, 06:27 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 2,607,769 times
Reputation: 852
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Munchkin View Post
Brian don't put words into my mouth..... I never once said that it is the right judgment for another man to kill another man.... Those are your thoughts and words !

"Then I don't know how to help you".... ARE you serious ?

Brian, you would be the last person.... no wait, even if you were the only person left in the world..... I would never ask you for help and spiritual guidance..... an individual who hides behind the name of Christ, using the name of Christ for their cowardness and top it off especially one who calls the word of God stale manna and telling other's don't read it, put it down, is the last person God would use to teach his principles of His TRUTH and His LOVE.... no matter how much they protest, yelling peace and love..... !!

I can see it now..... when persecution comes you would be the one sitting by the fire denying you ever knew Him !! Your peace and love is very selfish and thinking about only yourself and not for those who God has called to protect against evil !!

God so knows a coward will never have your back let alone Jesus'...... but they always have an excuse for the reason why they didn't.
Now I can see why that the word of God states a coward will never inherit the kingdom of God.....
Your posting in this thread speaks volumes and the very opposite of the love of God, a man standing in the name of Christ for those, protecting them, women, children, the widow, orphan, etc., against the aggression of evil and wickedness, amen !!
Blessings to you, CM
brian
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