ROMANS 4:5..."But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him..."... (Revelation, pray)

[AlabamaStorm]

Originally Posted by savedbysovereigngrace

alabama:

Thats no problem, there are an elect and non elect, where does the scripture say that its not ?

Well, there are many scriptures that speak of "all" in a universal sense and application, that would preclude limiting it to a particular group, at least without doing violence to it.

What you might consider is letting scripture speak for itself from time to time. And if it contradicts your current set of doctrines, perhaps give more thought to massaging those doctrines rather than the scriptures. You might even end up discarding what you once considered orthodoxy, in favor of what Christ reveals to you.

I'm willing to do this too. I'm not necessarily stuck with a particular set of doctrines in my back pocket either.

[AlabamaStorm]

Originally Posted by savedbysovereigngrace

The elect are not condemned period. God lays no charge against His elect Rom 8:

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

The non elect are condemned already Jn 3:

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

And they shall not see Life Jn 3:

36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Thats no future hope of entering into life ! Matt 19:17

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

If you see Joh 3:18 and 36 as speaking of the flesh, then the issue is resolved. The flesh, as we know it, will never enter into life. Nor was it ever meant to after the fall.

Regarding Matt 19:17. While it is true that unbelievers (of which the young ruler clearly identified himself as) will not enter life in that state of unbelief, it is not true that that will necessarily be their final outcome. For later in the text, we read:

Mat 19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Now, it's clear also that the young ruler is also elect, as Christ loved him (Mar 10:21). However, he was not then subjectively aware of it. But in time, he will be.

[AlabamaStorm]

Anyway - Savedbysoverigngrace...I've got an early day ahead of me tomorrow, and it's late. Thank-you for the discourse..

[savedbysovereigngrace]

alabama:

If you see Joh 3:18 and 36 as speaking of the flesh, then the issue is resolved

There is no problem, just your lack of understanding. The elect are never condemned by God, period !

[AlabamaStorm]

Originally Posted by savedbysovereigngrace

alabama:

There is no problem, just your lack of understanding. The elect are never condemned by God, period !

Well, I do have a lack of understanding on many things. So let me pick your brain here...

The scripture I raised earlier regarding the elect:

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Is it your belief that the elect were in Adam too (the all men?)

[savedbysovereigngrace]

alabama:

Is it your belief that the elect were in Adam too (the all men?)

Yes Rom 5:18

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The condemnation here that came upon the elect, was imputed to Christ, He was condemned with their condemnation, hence He was sentenced to die on the cross for their sins..

Rom 8:33-34

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Now the elect, were made subjectively to experience condemnation, being constituted sinners, but legally no..

Their condemnation they merited was real and was deserved, but because of the Surety Head, Jesus Christ, He took the condemation legally upon Himself..

However, this does not apply to all men without exception, because even now they are condemned and under the wrath of God legally as Per Jn 3:

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

God's wrath abideth on Him ! The word for wrath here is in the present tense in the greek, denoting a continual state, and they shall not see life in the future, they will forever be abiding under God's wrath.

Not so for God's elect, they have been delivered from the wrath to come Rom 5:

1 Thess 1:10

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us[The elect] from the wrath to come.

Rom 5:9

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

[AlabamaStorm]

Originally Posted by savedbysovereigngrace

alabama:

Yes Rom 5:18

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The condemnation here that came upon the elect, was imputed to Christ, He was condemned with their condemnation, hence He was sentenced to die on the cross for their sins..

Rom 8:33-34

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Now the elect, were made subjectively to experience condemnation, being constituted sinners, but legally no..

Their condemnation they merited was real and was deserved, but because of the Surety Head, Jesus Christ, He took the condemation legally upon Himself..

However, this does not apply to all men without exception, because even now they are condemned and under the wrath of God legally as Per Jn 3:

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

God's wrath abideth on Him ! The word for wrath here is in the present tense in the greek, denoting a continual state, and they shall not see life in the future, they will forever be abiding under God's wrath.

Not so for God's elect, they have been delivered from the wrath to come Rom 5:

1 Thess 1:10

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us[The elect] from the wrath to come.

Rom 5:9

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

You seem kind of oily here....You previously stated the elect were never condemned. Of which I posted scripture that clearly stated they were.

And, you keep repeating the scriptures of "charging" and "condemning". Both of which speak of future and present conditions, rather than past events.

If you look at the Greek verbs "charge" εγκαλεσει (future tense) and "condemn" κατακρινων (present tense, and future tense), the idea here is that they are no longer viewed as being of the flesh (condemned), but rather born of the Spirit, their charge of condemnation (a past tense event) being acquitted by Christ, resulting in a present, as well as future tense, condition.

[savedbysovereigngrace]

alabama:

You seem kind of oily here....You previously stated the elect were never condemned.

They are not, were did I say they were condemned ?

[AlabamaStorm]

Originally Posted by savedbysovereigngrace

alabama:

They are not, were did I say they were condemned ?

You indicated they were included in the all in Adam, of which all were said to be condemned. Or perhaps I didn't understand this statement of yours here:

"The condemnation here that came upon the elect"

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Are you saying the elect were not included in Adam, or that they were included in the all but scripture was wrong when it said all men to condemnation?

Chew on that for a while...I've got to run a few erands...

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by savedbysovereigngrace

mystic:



This is not about me. Its about Christ and what He did..

Sounds super spiritual, but in truth is a cop out. Mystic your simple question remains unanswered because the poster does not have an answer to the the question which truthfully states it's about Christ and not ourselves.

If they told the truth why they "think" they are elected, it would be because they believe they are correct in their own minds doctrinally so they have to be of the elect. It's a sad state of affairs to think somehow what you believe is higher than walking in the Love of God, which simply is loving your neighbor as yourself.