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Old 05-12-2011, 06:44 AM
 
Location: Florida
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I have started this New Thread on Romans 4:5, of which fellow members use in error, in an attempt to support their assumptions that the death and the resurrection of Christ 2000 years ago has somehow negated anything need be done by any ungodly sinner since then, by stating: "Whatever is required of us was also performed and accomplished by Christ for us"....that somehow their salvation was signed, sealed and delivered and nothing more need be done by them...no works...no repentance...no baptism in the Holy Ghost...doesn't have to be born again...no nothing...just keep on keeping on...in disobedience to the commandments of God, living in sin...transgressing the law of God.

It is absolutely true that works do not gain us any portion of the gift of our salvation...but good works are absolutely required of those who have recieved this precious gift by faith in Jesus Christ, through the Holy Spirit and the power thereof!...be not deceived!...You WILL! and are REQUIRED! to WORK OUT YOUR OWN SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING!

This belief absolutely, totally ignores the whole of Scripture in which God commands obedience from us, where He clearly instructs us in the things that are required of us that need be done or accomplished by any and all ungodly sinners since the death and resurrection of His Son, our Savior, Jesus Christ...that would lead them along the path of righteousness toward their salvation to enter into the gates of the Kingdom of God for eternity.

What we have here is a total disregard of the truth of the Word of the Living God...a total elimination of truth, which will ultimately lead every single soul that has bought into this lie, to their total destruction...separated from God forever.

Christ suffered a horrible death on the cross for all mankind...no one, not one single human being is left without the offer of the Gift of His precious blood to reconcile them back into a right relationship with the Father...the problem is this, not all of mankind will receive, through faith in Jesus Christ, and believe into Him to where they will forsake their own will for the will of God....forsaking their own lustful desires of the flesh that leads to the death of their soul, and choosing God's Way instead, that would lead them into life eternal with Him.

The following post is the one that takes Romans 4:5 totally out of context and so twisted beyond all recognition, in an attempt to make it say something it does not say at all...

Quote:
Verna, the one who does not work, DOES NOT WORK, say it with me again...lol..., DOES NOT WORK, but believes (and yes, in the present tense and is actively believing, not working, but believing) on HIM who IS JUSTIFYING the UNGODLY, his faith is counted for righteousness. The righteousness of Christ.

The person who does not work, but believes, HAS the righteousness of Christ imputed to him. ALL of Christ's righteousness. Everything that Jesus did on earth is imputed to the one who does not work but simply believes. Whatever is required of us was also performed and accomplished by Christ for us. And all that was accomplished by Jesus is imputed to us who believe the Gospel.

Read it again, and cherish it:

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

and further,

Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Romans 4:5:

"...that worketh not..." = And therefore to him that worketh not - that can pretend to no such merit, nor show any worth or value in his work, which may answer such a reward, but disclaiming any such pretension casts himself wholly upon the free grace of God in Christ, by a lively, active, obedient faith-to such a one faith is counted for righteousness, is accepted of God as the qualification required in all those that shall be pardoned and saved. Him that justifieth the ungodly, that is, him that was before ungodly. His former ungodliness was no bar to his justification upon his believing

"...but believeth on Him..." = The preposition conveys the idea of the absolute transference of trust from one's self to another. Literally the phrase means to believe into...

...let us look on John 1:12...

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"

...the "power" He gives is THE POWER TO OVERCOME COMMITTING WILLFULL SIN!...so if you continue to sin willfully, YOU ARE NOT A CHILD OF GOD! If you continue to willfully sin, YOU HAVE NOT RECEIVED THE GIFT OF CHRIST'S REDEMPTIVE BLOOD!

...you must accept and then receive the Gift of Christ's redemptive blood by living it through righteousness!...or, GOOD WORKS!



In Christ,
Verna.



If you are not changed...if you do not obey the Commandments of God...if you do not live and die IN Christ, indwelled with His Spirit...you are not born of God and you will not enter into the Kingdom of heaven...Thus saith the LORD God Almighty! It Is Written! Amen!!!

Last edited by Verna Perry; 05-12-2011 at 07:10 AM..
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Old 05-12-2011, 07:32 AM
 
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Default By the obedience of One not Two !

Paul in His Gospel teaches that many shall be made righteous by the obedience of ONE, not two Rom 5:

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The obedience here is the obedience of His death as per Phil 2:

8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Now it is by this One obedience, many shall be made righteous, Just like it was by ones [adam] disobedience many were made sinners, in both instances the results were conditioned upon One's act.

All those therefore that are made righteous before God is due not to their obedience, but the one obedience of Jesus Christ for those He died for.

And thats What is believed in the Gospel, so men who are saved did not do anything, Christ did the work that saved them and constituted them righteous..
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Old 05-12-2011, 08:13 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,681,073 times
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I do not see anyone actually advocating willful sin as you imply, the arguments often are centered around whether a religious point of view has actually defined what sin is. Words from pages have nothing to do with the intent of ones heart. Just quoting scripture and demaning people obey God has nothing to do with the spiritual teachings that scripture is intended to be used for.

What you do not realize is that many people accept Christ from the perspective of english words from a page, but they may not necessarily repeat those words as YOU expect.

There is more love out there for our creator than you and a lot of Christians will recognize because you are stuck in the letter, expecting results within the expectations of the language you are most accustomed to and the rituals that have become common for you.

Indeed, we should try to do better every day then we did yesterday, not as an act of saving ourself, but as an act of love, however, for those who don't it isn't about displeasing God or reaping his retribution, we heap it on ourselves without his help, but God has placed the law of sowing and reaping in place, it is not something we can escape from.

That is to gaurantee that no one will be lost, what we should do is encourage others to overcome struggle so that it gets easier along the way and not let our fellow man sink down into the futility of thinking we have to get it all figured out in this life.
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Old 05-12-2011, 08:21 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,232,976 times
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Default "believe" is "love" is "obey" is abide" !!!

Believe = 4100. pisteuo; from 4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or ting), i.e. credit; by impl. to entrust (espec. one's spiritual well-being to Christ);--believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

Believe = 4102. pistis; from 3982; persuasion. i.e. credence; mor. conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), espec. reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstr. constancy in such profession; by extens. the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--asurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

fidelity - Faithfulness to obligations, duties, or observances; loyalty. Allegiance. Devotion.

Believe = 3982. pitho; a prim verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by anal. to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflex. or pass. to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainity):--agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) confident, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.

Jesus' talk with the disciples on that last evening as they had The Lord's Supper in the upper room together...the whole talk is a plea for their trusting, loving acceptance of Himself as fully as of God.

John 13:34 "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another."

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another [The thing is this: love one another. This is the badge He gives them to wear. It will always identify them as His very own], even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

Leviticus 19:18 'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD.

Matthew 5:44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

John 15:12 "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.

John 15:17 "This I command you, that you love one another.

Galatians 5:14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

Ephesians 5:2 and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma.

1 Thessalonians 4:9 Now as to the love of the brethren, you have no need for anyone to write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another;

Hebrews 13:1 Let love of the brethren continue.

1 Peter 1:22 Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart,

1 John 2:7 Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard.

1 John 3:11 For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another;

1 John 3:23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

1 John 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

2 John 1:5 Now I ask you, lady, not as though I were writing to you a new commandment, but the one which we have had from the beginning, that we love one another.


Believing is a thing of the heart. It's a matter of your heart. And so that word believe becomes love, its second shape. And with that is quickly coupled obey, the third outer shape He gives the word believe that night.

Love is the heart side of believe, the inner side. Obey is the life-side of believe, the outer, the action side. The love looks out the window of the life and then comes out and walks down the street on an errand. Love doesn't simply love: it loves some one. Love that simply loves isn't love. Love comes to life only in the personal touch.

And love keeps in perfect rhythm of action with the one loved. That is the other way of saying obey. Obedience is the music of two wills acting together. Believe me, love me, obey me,—this is the three-noted music of the upper room; three notes but one music; a fourth note to be added later.

"I go to the Father. We, the Father and I, will send the Holy Spirit to you. He will come in through this opened door of obedience. He will abide in you, come in to stay. He will be everything and do everything that you need in every sort of circumstance. Keep in closest touch with Him: this is to be your one rule. Your part is simple. Believe; that means love; that means obey."


"I am the true vine, and My Father the vine-gardener." Here is the illustration that exactly pictures what He had been saying in the upper room. It supplies the fourth word, the fourth outer shape that word believe takes on, believe, that is—love, that is—obey, that is—abide.

Look at the vine, then you have the whole story pictured, simple, clear, full. Each of these four words grows out of the other as fruit out of blossom, and blossom out of the new branch and that out of the old stock of the vine: believe, love, obey, abide; vine, new branches, tiny blossom, fruit. The fruit grows out of the vine; yet it is the very life of the vine. Abide grows out of believe, yet it is the very heart and inner life of believe. Amen.


In Christ,
Verna.
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Old 05-12-2011, 04:53 PM
 
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Well Verna, you keep on working and I'll keep believing on Jesus...
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Old 05-12-2011, 05:46 PM
 
Location: Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Well Verna, you keep on working and I'll keep believing on Jesus...
To believe God is to love God...to love God is to obey God...to obey God is to abide in Him.

What does Scripture say...? about what is the Love for God Alabama...?

Let's look...it says:

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." 1 John 5:3.

John 14:15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command.

John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.

John 14:23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

1 John 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.

2 John 1:6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.



I'll keep on sincerely believing, sincerely loving, sincerely obeying, and sincerely abiding in Him in His presence as a loving, believing, obedient child of God, knowing He knows me and I know Him.



God Bless you,
Verna
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Old 05-12-2011, 05:56 PM
 
Location: East Coast
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It never goes unnoticed that those who think(in their own eyes i hasten to add)that they are sabbath and commandment keepers never refer to Romans 13:10 "Love does no harm to your neighbor,therefore love IS the fulfillment of the law.
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Old 05-12-2011, 06:25 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,312,888 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
To believe God is to love God...to love God is to obey God...to obey God is to abide in Him.

What does Scripture say...? about what is the Love for God Alabama...?

Let's look...it says:

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." 1 John 5:3.

John 14:15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command.

John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.

John 14:23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

1 John 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.

2 John 1:6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

I'll keep on sincerely believing, sincerely loving, sincerely obeying, and sincerely abiding in Him in His presence as a loving, believing, obedient child of God, knowing He knows me and I know Him.

God Bless you,
Verna
All the things you've listed above are, in-and-of-themselves good, and should be done. And, quite frankly, the things you've posted, you've actually not kept whole heartedly, Verna.

Pro 20:9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?

Ecc 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

I'm not arguing against love for God, nor arguing against keeping whatever commandments Christ has commanded. However, as scripture tells us, if you are "working" within the law as such, (of which you cannot fulfill perfectly) Christ is of no real benefit to you.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

What Paul is telling us in Rom 4:5, is that we who are unable to keep the law (and no one ever has kept the law or loved God the way they should, except Christ), yet we who believe in Christ who justifies the ungodly, are through faith imputed with His righteousness. And it is that righteousness that we need, Verna. Not our own righteousness, but His.

Let me ask you Verna. Are you imputed with Christ's righteousness?
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Old 05-12-2011, 07:22 PM
 
Location: Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
All the things you've listed above are, in-and-of-themselves good, and should be done. And, quite frankly, the things you've posted, you've actually not kept whole heartedly, Verna.

Pro 20:9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?
I will continue to wait upon the Lord, and He will protect me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alabama
Ecc 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not
The only real evidence of an interest by faith in the righteousness of the Redeemer is walking in newness of life...it is with all of my heart...with all of my mind...and with all of my strength that I can do all I can do...it is all that is expected of me to do...and I do give it everything I've got.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alabama
I'm not arguing against love for God, nor arguing against keeping whatever commandments Christ has commanded...
...of course you are. Be honest. You argue against each one of these passages:

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." 1 John 5:3.

John 14:15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command.

John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.

John 14:23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

1 John 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.

2 John 1:6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alabama
However, as scripture tells us, if you are "working" within the law as such, (of which you cannot fulfill perfectly) Christ is of no real benefit to you.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Those only are just or righteous who are freed from death and wrath, and restored into a state of life in the favour of God; and it is only through faith that persons become righteous.

How can God spare any man who remains under sin, seeing that he spared not his own Son, when our sins were charged upon him?

"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this:...to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." James 1:27.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alabama
What Paul is telling us in Rom 4:5, is that we who are unable to keep the law (and no one ever has kept the law or loved God the way they should, except Christ), yet we who believe in Christ who justifies the ungodly, are through faith imputed with His righteousness. And it is that righteousness that we need, Verna. Not our own righteousness, but His.
...what Romans 4:5 says is this: Romans 4:5:

"...that worketh not..." = And therefore to him that worketh not - that can pretend to no such merit, nor show any worth or value in his work, which may answer such a reward, but disclaiming any such pretension casts himself wholly upon the free grace of God in Christ, by a lively, active, obedient faith-to such a one faith is counted for righteousness, is accepted of God as the qualification required in all those that shall be pardoned and saved. Him that justifieth the ungodly, that is, him that was before ungodly. His former ungodliness was no bar to his justification upon his believing

"...but believeth on Him..." = The preposition conveys the idea of the absolute transference of trust from one's self to another. Literally the phrase means to believe into...

...let us look on John 1:12...

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"

...the "power" He gives is THE POWER TO OVERCOME COMMITTING WILLFULL SIN!...so if you continue to sin willfully, YOU ARE NOT A CHILD OF GOD! If you continue to willfully sin, YOU HAVE NOT RECEIVED THE GIFT OF CHRIST'S REDEMPTIVE BLOOD!

...you must accept and then receive the Gift of Christ's redemptive blood by living it through righteousness!...or, GOOD WORKS!



...the rest of what you said above about what Romans 4:5 is saying are your words not God's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alabama
Let me ask you Verna. Are you imputed with Christ's righteousness?
I've never claimed that we work for righteousness...never.

Romans 4:6 David also spoke of this when he described the happiness of those who are declared righteous without working for it: (NLT)

Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works (KJV)

I didn't have to do anything except get down on my knees and repent of my sins with a sorrowful, contrite heart...and He offered His hand to me to lift me up off my knees...He wiped my tears away...and baptized me in the Holy Ghost by His Spirit...and the love I have for Him makes me want to do everything I can to be all He wants me to be IN Him...I rest assured that He has declared me righteous...I rest arrured that I am born again of His Spirit...and I rest assured that I am an adopted son of God...a joint heir with Jesus Christ...The First Born of the brethren...of which I know I am a member. Why do I know this...?...because I obey Him, and that is how He knows I love Him...He said so.

Praise God!...\o/


Righteousness is not declared, nor is it imputed upon a willfull sinner. A willfull sinner(which is anyone who willfully transgresses the law of God) is not a child of God. It is written...Thus saith the Lord God Almighty!


God Bless you Alabama,
Verna.

Last edited by Verna Perry; 05-12-2011 at 07:42 PM..
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Old 05-12-2011, 09:30 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,312,888 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
I will continue to wait upon the Lord, and He will protect me.

The only real evidence of an interest by faith in the righteousness of the Redeemer is walking in newness of life...it is with all of my heart...with all of my mind...and with all of my strength that I can do all I can do...it is all that is expected of me to do...and I do give it everything I've got.
The sanctification process, that you describe above, is not what justifies us before God, Verna. What we experience and what we call "evidence" is not what justifies us either. Only Christ justifies us on the cross.

I believe you do "give it everything" you've got Verna. I really do. However, according to Paul, what we have to give is not enough for our justification. This is perhaps were we have a disconnect here. Rom 4:5 speaks of justification, not our sanctification. They are two different concepts in scripture. If you're speaking of the things that sanctify us, and using them to justifiy us, I have to respectfully disagree with you. Scripture tells us:

Rom 3:20 because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin.

Scripture declares we are unable, within the law, to justify ourselves before God. To love God with all are heart, and our neighbor as ourself, is the whole law. And, in our efforts to fulfill this law we will not be able to justify ourselves before God. What the law will do, however, is bring the knowledge of our failures to love God and our neighbor as we should. It will instruct us as a tutor to turn to Christ. As hard as we try to love God, we fail Verna, you know this as well as I. We need something more Verna. We need Christ for our justification.

Quote:
...of course you are. Be honest. You argue against each one of these passages:

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." 1 John 5:3.

John 14:15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command.

John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.

John 14:23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

1 John 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.

2 John 1:6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.
I don't argue against them Verna. And I'm not sure why you would say that.

What I argue against is that in our own attempt to love God and our neighbor, and in our attempt to obey all that Christ commands, that somehow we'll be able to justify ourselves before God by doing so. Scripture tells us we will not succeed by trying to keep the law. Nor should we put our faith in that law to seek it's righteousness.

Quote:
Those only are just or righteous who are freed from death and wrath, and restored into a state of life in the favour of God; and it is only through faith that persons become righteous.

How can God spare any man who remains under sin, seeing that he spared not his own Son, when our sins were charged upon him?

"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this:...to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." James 1:27.
Yes, much of what you say is true. However, what sanctifies us (God working in us of his good pleasure) is not that which God has ordained to save us from sin and death. What God has declared that saves is Christ crucified and risen for us. We all need the Gospel Verna. We need Christ. Christ crucified for our sins and risen for our justification. There is a scriptural distinction between what justifies us before God (Jesus on the cross) and what sanctifies us (God working in us) to prepare us for His glory. If you are speaking of our sanctification process, I somewhat agree with you. If, however, you're speaking of sanctification as somehow justifying us before God, I respectfully disagree. They are two different things.

Quote:
...what Romans 4:5 says is this: Romans 4:5:

"...that worketh not..." = And therefore to him that worketh not - that can pretend to no such merit, nor show any worth or value in his work, which may answer such a reward, but disclaiming any such pretension casts himself wholly upon the free grace of God in Christ, by a lively, active, obedient faith-to such a one faith is counted for righteousness, is accepted of God as the qualification required in all those that shall be pardoned and saved. Him that justifieth the ungodly, that is, him that was before ungodly. His former ungodliness was no bar to his justification upon his believing

"...but believeth on Him..." = The preposition conveys the idea of the absolute transference of trust from one's self to another. Literally the phrase means to believe into...

...let us look on John 1:12...

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"

...the "power" He gives is THE POWER TO OVERCOME COMMITTING WILLFULL SIN!...so if you continue to sin willfully, YOU ARE NOT A CHILD OF GOD! If you continue to willfully sin, YOU HAVE NOT RECEIVED THE GIFT OF CHRIST'S REDEMPTIVE BLOOD!

...you must accept and then receive the Gift of Christ's redemptive blood by living it through righteousness!...or, GOOD WORKS!


...the rest of what you said above about what Romans 4:5 is saying are your words not God's.

I've never claimed that we work for righteousness...never.

Romans 4:6 David also spoke of this when he described the happiness of those who are declared righteous without working for it: (NLT)

Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works (KJV)
Your exegesis of scripture is, well, not really scriptural. It sounds like something John Wesley or Adam Clarke wrote. Is it by chance?

We need to re-read Rom 4:5 again, and let it speak for itself.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

We are called upon to believe that Jesus justifies the ungodly, Verna. The ungodly. Think about that word. Ungodly. Do you believe this?

Quote:
I didn't have to do anything except get down on my knees and repent of my sins with a sorrowful, contrite heart...and He offered His hand to me to lift me up off my knees...He wiped my tears away...and baptized me in the Holy Ghost by His Spirit...and the love I have for Him makes me want to do everything I can to be all He wants me to be IN Him...I rest assured that He has declared me righteous...I rest arrured that I am born again of His Spirit...and I rest assured that I am an adopted son of God...a joint heir with Jesus Christ...The First Born of the brethren...of which I know I am a member. Why do I know this...?...because I obey Him, and that is how He knows I love Him...He said so.
I believe you did all these things Verna. I really do. However, we are to believe in Him (Jesus) who justifies the ungodly. We are to believe in that Jesus. There are probably as many Jesus' as there are gospels. We are to believe in the Jesus who justifies the ungodly. The Jesus of that Gospel. The everlasting Gospel.

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Praise God!...\o/
Righteousness is not declared, nor is it imputed upon a willfull sinner. A willfull sinner(which is anyone who willfully transgresses the law of God) is not a child of God. It is written...Thus saith the Lord God Almighty!
Well Verna, the scriptures do declare that righteousness IS imputed to those who believe on Him who justifies the ungodly. This is what scripture tells us.
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