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Old 06-12-2011, 02:15 AM
 
Location: san francisco
2,059 posts, read 1,921,656 times
Reputation: 737
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
It goes along with what you said before... Self-fulfilled prophecy. Universalists believe themselves to be saved and on equal footing with all mankind in that regard. Thus making them able to have a greater love for themselves, higher value of human life and experience, and a greater ability to love others as they love themselves.
I was speaking within the context of the Scriptures.... I'm not claiming that believing whatever you come up with makes it truth. I am simply saying that what the Bible offers is that if you believe in Jesus Christ you are saved. Hence, the self-fulfilling prophecy if you do not believe.

Quote:
On the otherhand, the ET believers have 2 logical ways to go: 1. They believe they are saved so consequently they look down on those who they deem unsaved. this DECREASES the love they have for their neighbor while feeding their egos.
2. The believer in hell knows they are no different from their neighbor so they don't deserve salvation and are always trying harder to ensure their salvation. Some preach at others constantly, some give to charity or read the bible and pray more.
Well, yes I completely disagree with this approach.

Quote:
I was one of the latter thinking Hell-believers. I knew that in order to love myself I had to believe God loved me. But in order for God to love me I had to be perfect and always love him. I felt worse about myself because I could never reach that perfection. This decreased my love for myself and consequently others.
The Bible never says you have to be perfect... the bible says you already ARE perfect... you just gotta act upon it, or believe.

"Wherefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature: the old things are passed away; behold, they are become new."

Quote:
In both cases, the belief in hell as a thing a loving god created to torture his creation is a hinderance to the greatest commandment, love god and others as yourself. UR takes out the fear, doubt, and favoritism. It tells you not to worry. You can freely love yourself and as a result your love for God and others increase.it matters not in what order this occurs.
But hell wasn't created by God to torture his creation. Hell/death is that illusion that was placed in our minds wayyy back in the garden of Eden. That's what I am trying to explain to you.

Christ came to say, "wake up, rise from the dead (hell) and i will shine on you."

And no it is not UR that takes out that fear... it is CHRIST who takes out that fear. He's the one who tells you not to worry and to freely love yourself, etc. etc. and etc.

Quote:
Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
Amen and Amen. And notice in that chapter you quoted from I Corinthians 13 where he says, " For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known." Paul is talking about this world as that dark mirror that we're looking through. This life is that illusion I've been making references to and we see glimpses here and there of the reality but death/hell gets in the way of it all... and the only thing that will lead to that reality is faith, hope and love... most of all love.

And again absolutely, when we come to believe in Christ that is all that matters. Right now, without Christ, we are in that illusion... but in Christ, we are in the reality.

 
Old 06-12-2011, 03:30 AM
 
Location: RI
18,950 posts, read 9,012,621 times
Reputation: 1331
Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
Oh really, if there is no such place as hell then why do think Jesus died a horrific death on the cross?
To save us from ourselves. I came that you might have life and life more abundantly. He laid down his life for us as a demonstration of the reality of the love of God towards us. Greater love has no man.


Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.John 15:13.

When will religious minded fundamental christianity concede that Jesus Christ said He came that we might have life......that he came to save not to destroy..............and what you are blaming and attributing to God is actually the devil...The devil came to steal kill and destroy life,not Jesus Christ.
 
Old 06-12-2011, 03:36 AM
 
Location: RI
18,950 posts, read 9,012,621 times
Reputation: 1331
Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
Oh really, if there is no such place as hell then why do think Jesus died a horrific death on the cross?
I know this might be hard to receive ILNC,it is for me too.........If we are not spiritually minded(and by that i do not mean full of bible head knowledge) we are actually experiencing death......for to be spiritually minded is life and peace to be carnally minded(most of us christians are most of the times) is sin and death.
 
Old 06-12-2011, 04:04 AM
 
5,501 posts, read 2,385,912 times
Reputation: 5118
Isaiah 28:15 Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we in agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves...."
 
Old 06-12-2011, 10:14 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
34,701 posts, read 12,092,733 times
Reputation: 4330
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Hell was talked about in the OT....but what can be expected that you would not see it in the OT when it is obvious the way God spoke about it in the NT.

"mankind was not in direct relation to God" ... in the OT



What do you call ......
  • Adam & Eve's eviction ... a UR experience
  • Cain's will to be banished over God's UR offer
  • Noah's insane weather forcasting
  • Tower of Babel
  • Abraham's adventures
  • The ten plagues
  • Pharaoh's army refusal to learn how to swim
  • Israel's failed military campains with subsequent multiple captivities
  • The falling walls of Jericho
  • King Darius' fasination with lions and their den
I really don't get it (actually I do ..just a phrase) do you people just get so wrapped up in the hysteria in proving just how wrong God is... that you mindless say things?
The book of Isiah ends with this warning: “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”
 
Old 06-12-2011, 10:14 AM
 
Location: san francisco
2,059 posts, read 1,921,656 times
Reputation: 737
Quote:
Originally Posted by ans57 View Post
Isaiah 28:15 Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we in agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves...."
that scripture pretty much backs up what i've been saying all along.
 
Old 06-12-2011, 10:35 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,214 posts, read 3,203,473 times
Reputation: 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by ans57 View Post
Isaiah 28:15 Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we in agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves...."
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 
Old 06-12-2011, 12:23 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,640,645 times
Reputation: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by migol84 View Post
I quite frankly find your beliefs a bit confusing and a little hard to understand. It seems as though you take certain parts of the Bible that you seem to fit well with. But it is not in my intentions to dispute that. I was speaking to you by taking the entire Bible's context.

Truth of the matter is the bible does say this.... "If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Rev. 20. It doesn't say they would be tortured forever. It simply says they are tossed into the lake of fire. Where does that eternal torment concept come from? Where exactly is the part where God convinces the unbelievers?
tell me again what names are written in the book of life? The bible declares all men fall short, therefore ALL names a blotted out... But one... Christ. Right?
Malachi 3:2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap.

Why the need for annihilation when it should serve a purpose? What purpose is there in "poof?"
Quote:
If we are talking about the bible after all and what the Bible says about hell then that's what I'd like to discuss. Not in some belief that you found fit for yourself... because I after all don't think like you do. So it's impossible for me to have your precise beliefs.

I believe in the same way as you do that we are all children of God... and all that good stuff. But I also believe in what the Bible says. And the bible does say that the only way we come to God is through believing in Jesus Christ and that's the ultimate message.

Why then did God create humans you ask? Well, that's what I'd like to know too... and that's what my purpose in this life is to find those answers. But that doesn't mean that the "annihilation" is to be disregarded completely. Maybe there's more to it then meets the eye and that is why we have these discussions after all.... to see what we can find.

Tell me though, how did you come about disregarding the angels, demons, hell etc but yet you found ways to believe in God, heaven, etc? Do you believe in eternity? Where do these ideas come from?
I don't believe in heaven either, God well... I think God can't be proven but I'm holding out hope that some God actually exists. How can a person believe or disbelieve eternity? I have no way of knowing other than I suppose It means outside of time. And where did I get these ideas? The bible and my own human reasoning.
 
Old 06-12-2011, 12:30 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,640,645 times
Reputation: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by migol84 View Post
There is a huge misunderstanding with people in the church these days. But in the best way that I can put it, in simply studying the scriptures, I believed. It's what happened with Noah, Abraham, Moses, and even Paul.

"“Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Romans 4:1

"By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed to go out unto a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing whither he went." Hebrews 11:8

No questions asked.... just believe. And in believing in what the Bible says, the bible says, "you are righteous." "The just shall live by faith, and not by sight."
Tell that to the victims of David Koresh and others who had blind faith in what they were taught....
 
Old 06-12-2011, 12:35 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,214 posts, read 3,203,473 times
Reputation: 401
Once the church underdstands the concept to the resurrection of the dead to its fullest, the doctrine of hell will inevitably slip away...

Last edited by sciotamicks; 06-12-2011 at 12:54 PM..
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