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Old 06-13-2011, 10:15 AM
 
9,083 posts, read 4,455,202 times
Reputation: 988
Quote:
Originally Posted by migol84 View Post
Why do you say I'm not wanting to hear another viewpoint? Am I not constantly on here, diligently reading and responding? All I was saying is that this discussion is going back and forth. I see myself repeating myself over and I'm also getting this vibe that the viewpoint I'm trying to bring is not being heard. Hence, "anything I interpret from the bible is filtered through what I desire to believe. Therefore I deceive myself all the time, just as Koresh deceived others."

I'm coming from the perspective that maybe if we were to study the Bible and see what it actually has to say, then perhaps we'd all be in "one mind and one accord" having all of us putting on the mind of Christ. And if the Spirit of the Word that created the universe has inspired that book then perhaps it will inspire all of us to understand crucial things. Instead, I'm getting idealistic rebuttals and not the message of the Bible. Maybe, it is the Word of God, maybe it isn't. But why not we look into it together? I'm not getting that at all. I get, "oh the Bible can't be trusted because your mind will deceive you." Makes no sense at all.
Migol84,
The vibe your getting is because there are many here have "opened their eyes or ears" to other voices that isn't from God. As John said:
1 John 4:6
We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

There are people here who deny Jesus as God..yet John writes otherwise. John 1:1

There are people here who are reject the Bible as the source God provided to find eternal life ... yet John writes otherwise. 1 John 5:13

There are people who believe God will not hold sin accountable, that all will be UR'ed ... yet John writes otherwise. John 3:36


This is why the same people say the same things...and I don't get bothered when accused of being narrow minded.
I agree with John 1:1, 3:36, 1 John 5:13. God's people can reconize who aren't from God and have the spirit of falsehood by what they object to.

Object to Jesus judging people and sending them to their eternal damnation ... then they don't "listen to us" (Matthew 25),
Object that God's wrath remains on unbelievers ..... then they don't "listen to us" (John 3:36)

Last edited by twin.spin; 06-13-2011 at 10:31 AM..

 
Old 06-13-2011, 12:04 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
2,031 posts, read 1,530,142 times
Reputation: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Migol84,
The vibe your getting is because there are many here have "opened their eyes or ears" to other voices that isn't from God. As John said:
1 John 4:6
We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

There are people here who deny Jesus as God..yet John writes otherwise. John 1:1

There are people here who are reject the Bible as the source God provided to find eternal life ... yet John writes otherwise. 1 John 5:13

There are people who believe God will not hold sin accountable, that all will be UR'ed ... yet John writes otherwise. John 3:36


This is why the same people say the same things...and I don't get bothered when accused of being narrow minded.
I agree with John 1:1, 3:36, 1 John 5:13. God's people can reconize who aren't from God and have the spirit of falsehood by what they object to.

Object to Jesus judging people and sending them to their eternal damnation ... then they don't "listen to us" (Matthew 25),
Object that God's wrath remains on unbelievers ..... then they don't "listen to us" (John 3:36)
Amen twin.
 
Old 06-13-2011, 12:49 PM
 
Location: san francisco
2,059 posts, read 1,794,476 times
Reputation: 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post

Because of what you said, you seem to be blaming Kat for not agreeing with you. I think both of your arguments are clear, but we have to agree to disagree sometimes. You're frustrated because you can't get Kat to think like you do. You can't always win when debating religion!
I am not blaming Kat for anything. I am just simply saying our conversation is going in circles and we can't even get to the bottom of the said discussion.

No, I'm not frustrated at all. I just simply feel that this conversation isn't going anywhere. I can't make her think like I can and she can't make me think like she can. And ma'am this is not a debate.... when i first began this conversation I wanted this to be a sort of study. Not a debate! I wanted to look into the scriptures but they kept getting cut down... pretty much implying, "i don't believe in that." Soooo.... what does that tell us? this conversation is simply going nowhere.

Quote:
You're coming from a fundamentalist ETer perspective and Kat is not. I think it's fine to debate that but it's not okay to tell someone else they are not making sense when they are, to me at least. I'm a Universalist so of course I understand where Kat is coming from and it's really kind of unfair when debating to try and paint the other person as incoherent simply because you're not willing to listen to what it is they are telling you. We ARE looking into the word of God together, but you have to have an open mind and heart to another's perspective and as a former ETer I know how hard that can be. But don't discount what someone is saying simply because you don't agree with it, listen and hear.
No, no, no, read what I said again. i said that we were both not making sense... I said that "our conversation" hasn't been cohesive and incoherent. And at times I couldn't understand where she was coming from because I simply couldn't understand her, so I had to repeatedly tell ask her where she's coming from. there's no wrong in me saying that. If I can't understand something... then I simply can't understand it. It is not that I wasn't having an open mind... or that I think she's not a "sensible" person and like I said, I feel as though she wasn't having an open mind to what I was saying either.

Were we looking into God's word together?? I don't know. I kept trying to put out things to show that I was... she kept cutting them down, pretty much saying you can't trust that interpretation never giving a logical reason why I can't other than, "you're human. you make mistakes."

You want me to listen and hear? Sure, just do the same with me when I am sharing my perspective and no one has yet to do that. You're pretty much saying in your point of view that she's right and I am not.
 
Old 06-13-2011, 02:39 PM
 
21,849 posts, read 9,719,116 times
Reputation: 3702
Quote:
Originally Posted by migol84 View Post
Why do you say I'm not wanting to hear another viewpoint? Am I not constantly on here, diligently reading and responding? All I was saying is that this discussion is going back and forth. I see myself repeating myself over and I'm also getting this vibe that the viewpoint I'm trying to bring is not being heard. Hence, "anything I interpret from the bible is filtered through what I desire to believe. Therefore I deceive myself all the time, just as Koresh deceived others."

I'm coming from the perspective that maybe if we were to study the Bible and see what it actually has to say, then perhaps we'd all be in "one mind and one accord" having all of us putting on the mind of Christ. And if the Spirit of the Word that created the universe has inspired that book then perhaps it will inspire all of us to understand crucial things. Instead, I'm getting idealistic rebuttals and not the message of the Bible. Maybe, it is the Word of God, maybe it isn't. But why not we look into it together? I'm not getting that at all. I get, "oh the Bible can't be trusted because your mind will deceive you." Makes no sense at all.
You simply are not properly dividing the scriptures and mistakenly believe the OT to be the word of God. It is NOT. It is God inspired . . . NOT dictated. Christ and His NT Gospel is the ONLY Word of God. Until you recognize the distinction (which Twin and Finn and CWTL and ILNC and Cyber, et al. do NOT). . . we cannot have a proper discussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Migol84,
The vibe your getting is because there are many here have "opened their eyes or ears" to other voices that isn't from God. As John said:
1 John 4:6
We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

There are people here who deny Jesus as God..yet John writes otherwise. John 1:1
Not ALL Christians believe in the Trinity the same way you do, Twin . . . for very good reasons. The insistence on three "persons" in one is based on our ancestors' ignorance of consciousness. There was no other way to explain it. The Holy Spirit IS the consciousness of God and Jesus achieved that IDENTICAL consciousness in a human brain. When He died and was reborn as Spirit . . . His human consciousness joined the collective human consciousness as the Comforter(Holy Spirit) that is available to ALL human consciousness. Since the Holy Spirit is God's consciousness and Jesus had the IDENTICAL consciousness . . . THAT is how they are all the same.
Quote:
There are people here who are reject the Bible as the source God provided to find eternal life ... yet John writes otherwise. 1 John 5:13
Lie, Twin. We properly divide the scriptures. John is writing about Christ's NT Gospel . . . not the OT. The OT is NOT the word of God

1 John 5:13 King James Version (KJV)

13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Quote:
There are people who believe God will not hold sin accountable, that all will be UR'ed ... yet John writes otherwise. John 3:36
Lie, Twin. No matter how many times you are told otherwise you will not be dissuaded from these lies. Let me reiterate . . . we reap what we sow. You cannot Lie for God, Twin . . . so pay attention.
Quote:
I agree with John 1:1, 3:36, 1 John 5:13. God's people can reconize who aren't from God and have the spirit of falsehood by what they object to.
1 Cor 13 makes it easy to recognize the spirit of falsehood and the "fruits" that are not of God.
Quote:
Object to Jesus judging people and sending them to their eternal damnation ... then they don't "listen to us" (Matthew 25),
Object that God's wrath remains on unbelievers ..... then they don't "listen to us" (John 3:36)
ET having no end cannot serve any purpose other than a spirit of Evil. It cannot be of God because it violates 1 Cor 13 standards. period.
Wrath is simply consequences designed for correction and refinement.
 
Old 06-13-2011, 02:43 PM
 
Location: san francisco
2,059 posts, read 1,794,476 times
Reputation: 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You simply are not properly dividing the scriptures and mistakenly believe the OT to be the word of God. It is NOT. It is God inspired . . . NOT dictated. Christ and His NT Gospel is the ONLY Word of God. Until you recognize the distinction (which Twin and Finn and CWTL and ILNC and Cyber, et al. do NOT). . . we cannot have a proper discussion.
Luke 24:25Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

26Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

27And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.


How then shall I recognize the distinction that the Gospel and NT is the only Word of God?

I'm trying to tell you that maybe you have it wrong.... and you're not wanting to see things in my perspective. Meanwhile, I'm over here on this side pleading my case, begging you to make me understand your perspective.

Last edited by migol84; 06-13-2011 at 02:52 PM..
 
Old 06-13-2011, 03:22 PM
 
21,849 posts, read 9,719,116 times
Reputation: 3702
Quote:
Originally Posted by migol84 View Post
Luke 24:25Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

How then shall I recognize the distinction that the Gospel and NT is the only Word of God?
By recognizing that the OT scriptures were inspirations received to prepare us to receive the Word of God (Christ). They foretold of Him and set out the things He would do so we could validate Christ. He fulfilled all of them and is still doing so. But ONLY Christ the Living Word of God and His words recorded by His apostles can be considered the Word of God.
Quote:
I'm trying to tell you that maybe you have it wrong.... and you're not wanting to see things in my perspective. Meanwhile, I'm over here on this side pleading my case, begging you to make me understand your perspective.
Until you properly divide the scriptures and the Word of God . . . you will remain under the veil of ignorance that is over those who read the OT.

2 Corinthians 3:14-17

But their minds were blinded: (Blind Mind = ignorant) for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16Nevertheless when it (the Heart) shall turn to the Lord (Christ), the vail shall be taken away.
17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
 
Old 06-13-2011, 04:02 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
2,933 posts, read 2,023,436 times
Reputation: 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by migol84 View Post
Luke 24:25Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

26Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

27And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.


How then shall I recognize the distinction that the Gospel and NT is the only Word of God?

I'm trying to tell you that maybe you have it wrong.... and you're not wanting to see things in my perspective. Meanwhile, I'm over here on this side pleading my case, begging you to make me understand your perspective.
Migol, Welcome to the forum!!! It can be very trying listening to all of the different understandings of scripture that is on this forum..... I can understand what you are saying I have been there where you are.

There are a lot of us here that are wrestling with all the various doctrines that have scriptural support, trying to understand what the scriptures are saying ...... it seems to me that all of the various doctrines do have scriptural support, depending on how they are interpreted, and that there are many different layers to the scriptures.

In the OT we are told that the scribes had a lying pen .... I do believe that though the OT scriptures are inspired that they are tainted with mans understandings as well...... The culture that the passed through was a rebellious one.

Jer 8:8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.

Jer 7:20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.
Jer 7:21 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh.
Jer 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
Jer 7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

I believe that the OT prophecies the judgment against Israel for their disobedience and also in the NT judgment is predicted for the Jews in 70AD and a lot of these scriptures are taken out of context and are used to support a doctrine of an eternal spiritual hell (lake of fire) ........
 
Old 06-13-2011, 04:11 PM
 
Location: Southwest Arkansas
657 posts, read 244,179 times
Reputation: 675
meerkat2


Meerkat2, Jeremiah is a great book when it comes to refuting ET

look st 32:35

They built the high places of Baal in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

no such evil entered God's mind and he calls it an abomination

the Valley of the Son of Hinnom (Gahenna) is traditionally translated Hell

ET and its teachings has done nothing but harm the Christian cause
 
Old 06-13-2011, 04:18 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 945,845 times
Reputation: 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
ET having no end cannot serve any purpose other than a spirit of Evil. It cannot be of God because it violates 1 Cor 13 standards. period.
Wrath is simply consequences designed for correction and refinement.
 
Old 06-13-2011, 04:20 PM
 
Location: san francisco
2,059 posts, read 1,794,476 times
Reputation: 732
Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
Migol, Welcome to the forum!!! It can be very trying listening to all of the different understandings of scripture that is on this forum..... I can understand what you are saying I have been there where you are.

There are a lot of us here that are wrestling with all the various doctrines that have scriptural support, trying to understand what the scriptures are saying ...... it seems to me that all of the various doctrines do have scriptural support, depending on how they are interpreted, and that there are many different layers to the scriptures.

In the OT we are told that the scribes had a lying pen .... I do believe that though the OT scriptures are inspired that they are tainted with mans understandings as well...... The culture that the passed through was a rebellious one.

Jer 8:8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.

Jer 7:20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.
Jer 7:21 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh.
Jer 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
Jer 7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

I believe that the OT prophecies the judgment against Israel for their disobedience and also in the NT judgment is predicted for the Jews in 70AD and a lot of these scriptures are taken out of context and are used to support a doctrine of an eternal spiritual hell (lake of fire) ........
I can agree to what you are saying, but I do not entirely see how the OT is not considered God's word but the NT is. I can also agree to some measure that it is indeed the inspired Word of God. But how can we make the distinction when it is or when it isn't from God? Simply because it doesn't describe a loving God, then that makes it not from God?

Maybe I see it entirely different. Nonetheless, I am coming from the perspective that if we take into account the entire book from Genesis to Revelation and we analyze what it says then we can understand why there is hell. I do not believe in it the way fundamentalists do but I also do not believe in the way Universalist do. They seem to pick and choose which scriptures to follow and that's pretty alarming.
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