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Old 06-19-2011, 09:28 PM
 
7,435 posts, read 2,626,482 times
Reputation: 622

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
No, it is not a complex issue, which makes me wonder how you still get it wrong. "Every man's work" talks about believers only. If you read the whole chapter you will understand it talks about believers, and their works, and the rewards they will receive, or not receive, but all believers still receive eternal life.
The conditions and circumstances are relevant because "Every man's work shall be made manifest..." However, I would venture to assert that
the most pervasive fallacy of men is that of "Every believers' work shall be made manifest..." neglecting the fact that we are ALL his children.

"For a Spirit of prostitution has led them astray, And they have played the Harlot, withdrawing from the true SPIRIT."

 
Old 06-20-2011, 12:27 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
2,989 posts, read 1,572,652 times
Reputation: 219
Lightbulb The following has always been true

Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
It is simply wrong to state \ ref \ hold any belief that hell, its punishment isn't forever.
I have posted this before on a different thread, and I think it is appropriate to post it again.

THE FOLLOWING HAS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE TRUE REGARDING THE DEBATE ABOUT ETERNAL TORMENT

The argument about “eternal hell” nearly always gets bogged down with the words, “My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars,” and the result is nearly always a stalemate.

My Greek scholars are Louis Abbott and the many Greek scholars he quotes in chapters three and twelve of
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
An Analytical Study of Words

Also see
TIME AND ETERNITY A BIBLICAL STUDY
TIME AND ETERNITY: A Biblical Study

Also see THE SCHOLAR’S CORNER FOR THE STUDY OF BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM
Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.

But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that that is exactly what God is like.

Last edited by rodgertutt; 06-20-2011 at 12:39 AM.. Reason: addition
 
Old 06-20-2011, 06:03 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
35,304 posts, read 12,579,331 times
Reputation: 4394
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
The conditions and circumstances are relevant because "Every man's work shall be made manifest..." However, I would venture to assert that
the most pervasive fallacy of men is that of "Every believers' work shall be made manifest..." neglecting the fact that we are ALL his children.

"For a Spirit of prostitution has led them astray, And they have played the Harlot, withdrawing from the true SPIRIT."
Did you read the chapter? Apparently not. Who is the author talking to? Believers, those who live by the Spirit, and those who build upon the foundation of Christ. It is all spelled out the chapter. You are cherry picking verses out of context, and it is a recipe for a false teaching.
 
Old 06-20-2011, 06:46 AM
 
Location: Indianapolis
4,325 posts, read 3,337,988 times
Reputation: 641
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
The conditions and circumstances are relevant because "Every man's work shall be made manifest..." However, I would venture to assert that
the most pervasive fallacy of men is that of "Every believers' work shall be made manifest..." neglecting the fact that we are ALL his children.

"For a Spirit of prostitution has led them astray, And they have played the Harlot, withdrawing from the true SPIRIT."
Great post! Still not able to rep ya.
 
Old 06-20-2011, 06:50 AM
 
Location: Indianapolis
4,325 posts, read 3,337,988 times
Reputation: 641
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Did you read the chapter? Apparently not. Who is the author talking to? Believers, those who live by the Spirit, and those who build upon the foundation of Christ. It is all spelled out the chapter. You are cherry picking verses out of context, and it is a recipe for a false teaching.
People are allowed to cherry pick because when you leave everything as is and cannot discern truth from lies, that means you spiritual self has not been awakened to the Truth of God. You cannot have a beautiful garden as long as there are weeds. Pick out the weeds and see what you have left that is all Truth, Beauty and Goodness. Learn from that.
 
Old 06-20-2011, 07:33 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
2,989 posts, read 1,572,652 times
Reputation: 219
Exclamation My post #845 contains an alternative

On several occasions I have heard the argument that goes something like this
"My parents and friends believe in eternal torment and they are the nicest people that anyone would want to hang out with."

I'm old enough (72) to remember the news reels of the second world war.
They showed little children obviously enjoying being embraced by Hitler with great admiration on their faces. Their parents had taught them to "love" this "wonderful" man, and of course Hitler "loved" them back.

Yet the eternal torment god is so much worse than any Hitler.

Had I not learned about the info contained in my post #845 on the previous page I have no doubt that I would be locked away in a mental hospital for the rest of my life because of my inability to successfully emotionally cope with the idea of god who would let anyone choose themselves into an inescapable state of everlasting suffering (Arminian), or deserve to suffer forever just by being born into the human race (Calvinist).
It was in fact the cause of my horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78). And learning that there was an alternate way of understanding the scriptures enable me to gradually recover.

So I would say to ETers, "You keep believing in ET. That's what you're good at."

But for anyone who can't love an ET god, just know that there is the alternative that is contained in my post #845 on the previous page.

Last edited by rodgertutt; 06-20-2011 at 07:36 AM.. Reason: spelling
 
Old 06-20-2011, 09:35 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 6,263,347 times
Reputation: 58115
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
On several occasions I have heard the argument that goes something like this
"My parents and friends believe in eternal torment and they are the nicest people that anyone would want to hang out with."

I'm old enough (72) to remember the news reels of the second world war.
They showed little children obviously enjoying being embraced by Hitler with great admiration on their faces. Their parents had taught them to "love" this "wonderful" man, and of course Hitler "loved" them back.

Yet the eternal torment god is so much worse than any Hitler.

Had I not learned about the info contained in my post #845 on the previous page I have no doubt that I would be locked away in a mental hospital for the rest of my life because of my inability to successfully emotionally cope with the idea of god who would let anyone choose themselves into an inescapable state of everlasting suffering (Arminian), or deserve to suffer forever just by being born into the human race (Calvinist).
It was in fact the cause of my horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78). And learning that there was an alternate way of understanding the scriptures enable me to gradually recover.

So I would say to ETers, "You keep believing in ET. That's what you're good at."

But for anyone who can't love an ET god, just know that there is the alternative that is contained in my post #845 on the previous page.
That's a very good Hitler analogy Rodger, makes a lot of sense. Thanks for sharing and keeping the faith.
 
Old 06-20-2011, 09:56 AM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,899,464 times
Reputation: 647
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright[B
;.Moderator cut: orphaned/b]]
" We do have to accept Christ in this life time if we want to avoid God's spiritual fire of refinement."

Exactly! This is the full statement of understanding. If you only focus on half of the statement (ie. the bolded portion), then what you are presenting is a half-truth, which is nothing more than a lie.

The full understanding is that there are always consequences: you will reap what you sow.

Last edited by Miss Blue; 06-20-2011 at 04:10 PM..
 
Old 06-20-2011, 10:22 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
2,989 posts, read 1,572,652 times
Reputation: 219
Default An alternative on page 843

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
On several occasions I have heard the argument that goes something like this
"My parents and friends believe in eternal torment and they are the nicest people that anyone would want to hang out with."

I'm old enough (72) to remember the news reels of the second world war.
They showed little children obviously enjoying being embraced by Hitler with great admiration on their faces. Their parents had taught them to "love" this "wonderful" man, and of course Hitler "loved" them back.

Yet the eternal torment god is so much worse than any Hitler.

Had I not learned about the info contained in my post #843 I have no doubt that I would be locked away in a mental hospital for the rest of my life because of my inability to successfully emotionally cope with the idea of god who would let anyone choose themselves into an inescapable state of everlasting suffering (Arminian), or deserve to suffer forever just by being born into the human race (Calvinist).
It was in fact the cause of my horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78). And learning that there was an alternate way of understanding the scriptures enable me to gradually recover.

So I would say to ETers, "You keep believing in ET. That's what you're good at."

But for anyone who can't love an ET god, just know that there is the alternative that is contained in my post #843.
Correction: My post to which I am referring is #843, not #845 which is not even my post.

Last edited by rodgertutt; 06-20-2011 at 10:25 AM.. Reason: spelling
 
Old 06-20-2011, 10:50 AM
 
Location: USA
5,588 posts, read 2,095,437 times
Reputation: 771
Ilene, you said you want to talk about "hell". I guess the question is, since that word is not actually in the bible, which one of the words/concepts either translated as "hell" or commonly thought of as "hell" is it that you're wanting to discuss really? Sheol/hades, gehenna, lake of fire, judgment, destruction, wrath,...? So many people think they all talk about exactly the same thing (and for most people that equates to eternal torment in their minds because that's what they've been taught), and I do think that's where much of the confusion comes from.
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