OK, Let's Begin Again With Hell (Zeus, believe, sin, Jesus Christ)

[Cyber Munchkin]

Originally Posted by brakelite

If obedience is solely the work of God and needs nothing of man's input, then why is it that so many Christians live in complete defeat and continue to live in sin and cherish their old evil habits?


While I agree that we are drwn to Christ, and that without that drawing, we would never approach Him, I strongly disagree with your personal connotation that you have added to the sense of the word by implying a degree of force, or in your own words, "great force'. Certainly, because of the strength and power of God's love, His drawing is passionate and has great power, but 'force' is an inappropriate word because it implies that there is a level of selfishness within the love of God, a character trait that is utterly foreign to the nature of the unselfish , even self sacrificial love of God. Because of that characteristic of love, there must always be a point where the final decision rests with us. Very very much like a marriage proposal. Our love may win over our sweethearts, and we will do anything to prove and demonstarte that love, but bottom line my froiend is that same love demands that the one we love must make the final decision whether they accept our love or reject it. Any other way and it ceases to be love.

AMEN...

Blessings,

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by brakelite

Let me ask you a question. what does the scripture tell us is the wages of sin?

This thread is supposed to be about the subject of "hell."
I think you probably should be posting on a thread that discusses annihilation versus universal reconcilaition.

If you do start, or join a thread that deals with that subject matter, you might like to read up on why we URs believe the Bible teaches universal salvation rather than annihilation.

Here is a snippet from the introduction to his exposition on that subject.
Gary Amirault (TENTMAKER), wrote
"When it comes to the final destination of the wicked, or unrighteous, Christians over the past two millenniums have divided themselves
into three beliefs: 1. Eternal Torment, 2. Eternal Death (Annihilationism), and 3. Salvation of the whole world through Jesus Christ.
Each of these views can be supported with Scriptures. Having been in all three groups, I know that there are sincere Bible centered believers in all of them. Obviously, all three cannot be true. Two of them have to be false.

ETERNAL DEATH ANNIHILATION ONE STEP OUT OF HELL ONE STEP SHORT OF GLORY
Eternal Death (Conditional Mortality, Annihilation): One Step Out of Hell; One Step Short of Glory

It's a good place to start to understand the UR point of view.

[twin.spin]

Originally Posted by rodgertutt

Like Saul of Tarsus everyone will eventually be rescued by the One we previously rejected.

And God says that Paul's conversion to faith was abnormal ... not the norm.

btw... I know this is just a formality to some but if you happen to notice ...."the come to Jesus moment" .... took place prior to death.

[Ironmaw1776]

Originally Posted by brakelite

If obedience is solely the work of God and needs nothing of man's input, then why is it that so many Christians live in complete defeat and continue to live in sin and cherish their old evil habits?

Because as the lord told Paul when he prayed to have the thorn in his side removed, "the grace of God will suffice".

While I agree that we are drwn to Christ, and that without that drawing, we would never approach Him, I strongly disagree with your personal connotation that you have added to the sense of the word by implying a degree of force, or in your own words, "great force'. Certainly, because of the strength and power of God's love, His drawing is passionate and has great power, but 'force' is an inappropriate word because it implies that there is a level of selfishness within the love of God, a character trait that is utterly foreign to the nature of the unselfish , even self sacrificial love of God. Because of that characteristic of love, there must always be a point where the final decision rests with us. Very very much like a marriage proposal. Our love may win over our sweethearts, and we will do anything to prove and demonstarte that love, but bottom line my froiend is that same love demands that the one we love must make the final decision whether they accept our love or reject it. Any other way and it ceases to be love.

You are wrong, and Kat is right. Kat is not the one who has added anything to the word. That is the literal meaning of the word, to forcibly drag. As we see it is used in reference to the disciples dragging the net filled with fish out of the water in John 21:6.

Free will is a myth, we are clay in the hands of God, and he chose us before we ever did anything. He makes some vessels to honor and some to dishonor, and it is all his workmanship. No one can resist the will of God Just as Paul told the pharisees who ask in reply , " if none resist the will of God then why does he yet find fault". Ill tell you what Paul told them in answer to that, "who are you to answer back to God oh man?"

[Pleroo]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

btw... I know this is just a formality to some but if you happen to notice ...."the come to Jesus moment" .... took place prior to death.

After all the discussion that went on about that in this thread, I'm surprised you would still call it a "formaliity" for URists. It's been explained by them repeatedly that faith in the here and now is essential to overcoming the curse/consequences of sin and spiritual "death" so that one can experience "age-during life" rather than "age-during correction".

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

And God says that Paul's conversion to faith was abnormal ... not the norm.

Everyone's conversion to faith is as unique as the individual.
Everyone's salvation is the product of God's saving grace, plus nothing.

We URs believe that God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

Then, after God has finished using evil and suffering for the reasons why He allowed them to temporarily exist, He will eradicate them from existence.

We believe that God has both the ability and the intention to save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will, and He will not fail to do so.

See my last post.

[Finn_Jarber]

Originally Posted by Pleroo

After all the discussion that went on about that in this thread, I'm surprised you would still call it a "formaliity" for URists. It's been explained by them repeatedly that faith in the here and now is essential to overcoming the curse/consequences of sin and spiritual "death" so that one can experience "age-during life" rather than "age-during correction".

No, no one gave a satisfactory answer to that question. Attempts were made, but the question remains unanswered.

Formality? It sure sounds like it. Moderator cut: delete

[rodgertutt]

The location of kolasis aionion doesn't matter.

The fact that age-during corrective chastisement will in fact occur is all that matters (Matthew 25:46).

Listed below are a fifteen translations compared to the King James Bible on Matthew 25:46.

Concerning the duration of kolasis (literally - corrective punishment), Matt. 25:46 says (KJV),
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal."

1. Scarlett's New Testament written in 1792 has "aeonian punishment" in place to "everlasting punishment."
"And these will go away into aeonian punishment: but the righteous into aeonian life."

2. The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson written in 1884 renders Matt. 25:46:
"And these shall go away into aeonian chastisement, and the just into aeonian life."

3. Young's Literal Translation first published in 1898 and reprinted many times since uses the following words:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."
Professor Young also compiled Young's Concordance, where one can check the translation of each Hebrew or Greek word as translated in the KJV.

4. The Twentieth Century New Testament first printed in the year 1900 has:
"And these last will go away 'into aeonian punishment,' but the righteous 'into aeonian life.'"

5. The Holy Bible in Modern English by Ferrar Fenton first published in 1903 gives the rendering:
"And these He will dismiss into a long correction, but the well-doers to an enduring life.

6. The New Testament in Modern Speech, by Dr. Weymouth, says:
"And these shall go away into punishment of the ages, but the righteous into life of the ages."
Dr. Weymouth most frequently adopts such terms as "life of the ages," "fire of the ages;" and in Rev. 14:6, "The good news of the ages." It is a matter to regret that the editors of the most recent edition of Dr. Weymouth's version have reverted to the KJV renderings for the passages containing the Greek word aion, eon, or age.

7. The Western New Testament published in 1926 renders Matt. 25:46 as follows:
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal."
The translation, however, has a footnote on Matthew 21:19 on the word "forever" which is the same word for "eternal" which says: "Literally, for the age.”

8. Clementson's The New Testament (1938) shows,
"And these shall go away into eonian correction, but the righteous into eonian life."

9. Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott (1942 edition) translates the verse,
"And these shall go forth to the aionian cutting-off; but the righteous to aionian life."
It should be noted that the "cutting-off" refers to pruning a fruit tree to make it bear more fruit. The idea behind the word is not destructive but productive! Had Jesus wanted to emphasize a destructive end, He would have used the word "timoria."

10. The Concordant Version (1930):
"And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

11. The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed printed in 1958 says:
"And these shall go away into agelasting cutting-off and the just into agelasting life."

12. Joseph Bryant Rotherham, in his Emphasized Bible (1959), translates this verse,
"and these shall go away into age-abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life."

13. The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible copyrighted in 1976 has "age-abiding correction" instead of "everlasting punishment."

14. Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010) has "And so, these folks will be going off into an eonian pruning (a lopping-off which lasts for an undetermined length of time; an age-lasting correction; a pruning which has its source and character in the Age), yet the fair and just folks who are in right relationship and are in accord with the Way pointed out [go off] into eonian life (life which has it source and character in the Age; life pertaining to the Age)”.

15. Even some King James Study Bibles will show the reader in the margins or appendixes that the King's translators were incorrect in their rendering of "eternal punishment.” The great Companion Bible by Dr. Bullinger is an example of that.

Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."

Also see what other Greek scholars say about it
An Analytical Study of Words
Chapter Eleven

[katjonjj]

Originally Posted by brakelite

If obedience is solely the work of God and needs nothing of man's input, then why is it that so many Christians live in complete defeat and continue to live in sin and cherish their old evil habits?


While I agree that we are drwn to Christ, and that without that drawing, we would never approach Him, I strongly disagree with your personal connotation that you have added to the sense of the word by implying a degree of force, or in your own words, "great force'. Certainly, because of the strength and power of God's love, His drawing is passionate and has great power, but 'force' is an inappropriate word because it implies that there is a level of selfishness within the love of God, a character trait that is utterly foreign to the nature of the unselfish , even self sacrificial love of God. Because of that characteristic of love, there must always be a point where the final decision rests with us. Very very much like a marriage proposal. Our love may win over our sweethearts, and we will do anything to prove and demonstarte that love, but bottom line my froiend is that same love demands that the one we love must make the final decision whether they accept our love or reject it. Any other way and it ceases to be love.

Nah. It's not like marriage at all. It's like father and child. Married people are on equal footing in love, whereas God as a good father drags his kids from danger against their will. I dont know if you're a parent but I am, and if any of my kids are in danger of hurting themselves I don't count it selfish love to drag them with great force away from danger. Tough love from a loving father is not selfish at all...

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA

What's not acceptable or satisfactory is that UR belief is NOT Biblical.

That certainly is one opinion.
Here is another
Universalism is Not in the Bible ?