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Old 06-13-2011, 12:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Did God really say that He will have all men to be saved?
No, that is just a desire, and God can't achieve what He desires.



God can do what He wants, but it is His will to give mankind his/her own choice.
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Old 06-13-2011, 01:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
God can do what He wants, but it is His will to give mankind his/her own choice.
Yet God declares all will bow and swear an oath of loyalty to Him... did God really say that?
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Old 06-13-2011, 01:57 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Yet God declares all will bow and swear an oath of loyalty to Him... did God really say that?
Hey legoman....Romans 14:1 is a direct ref to Isa 45:23. In the beginning of Romans, Paul audience is clear as to whom he is speaking to, and it is not Gentiles, or people outside of the covenant lineage in Israel. Read:

Now I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that I often planned to come to you(but was hindered until now), that I might have some fruit among you also, just as among the other Gentiles/ethnos/nations.

Other Nations? Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles (Eph. 3:1). This was not so. He was the apostle to the nations of Israel who had been outside the covenant. They were called "the nations." The Greek word "ethnos" means "nations." The word "ethnos" should not be translated "Gentiles" unless the context requires it. It says that the Greek word "ethnos" is literally "nations." But our translations say that Paul was a prisoner of Jesus Christ "for you Gentiles." This is not historically accurate at all. Paul was referring to his house arrest which was the result of his preaching hope to Israel (Acts). The "nations" (or Israel) for which Paul was under house arrest was that part of Israel that was outside the covenants of promise....Paul had just referred to them in chapter 2. I am going to cite the passage and translate "ethnos" as "nations" according to its literal meaning:

11 Therefore remember that you, once nations in the fleshwho are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Rom 2:11-17

The "nations" here had reference to the uncircumcised of Israel. They were "without hope" and they were "strangers from the covenants of promise." In its historical context the "nations" that were called the "Uncircumcision" were those OF ISRAEL who had broken the covenant by their uncircumcision and were therefore "without hope." They were not legally God's people because their uncircumcision "cut them off from God and the people" (Abrahamic covenant). But Christ reconciled both the Circumcised and the Uncircumcised OF ISRAEL in His body. The Gentiles had not even come into the picture yet. There is no biblical evidence that Christ was brought to the Gentiles before the "JEW FIRST" mandate was completed. Please note that it is Jewish Christians that James said were the "firstfruits" of the harvest. You don't start gathering the rest of the crop until you FIRST have gathered ALL the firstfruits (of Israel).

In the meantime God was justifying Gentiles who had only the revelation of God in nature and who had heard nothing of Christ or baptism. So in essence, you using Romans 14:1 as a case for non-covenant bound people is most likely in error, because the entire book of Romans is addressed to the uncircumcision (Israel in the nations), and the issue with them coming into the fold of God under Christ, will bless the rest of humanity in the ages to come. Is this Universalism?....maybe so, but we have no Biblcal authority to establish this specific theme, from what is communicated in Romans, which were repeatedly hammered down through the prophets to Christ Himself, to elude to, of someone, like the unsaved pagan, who was never part of God's plan for all Israel. Yes indeed, he that is pagan is reconciled, because of all of this, but will he benefit in the blessings of what has transpired? Only if he serves I feel. He doesn't go to hell or anything like that, but his "afterlife" so to speak, may not be in the presence of God, like those who are caught up. He may come back and haunt one of us, when we move into that old, haunted and rickety house

Last edited by sciotamicks; 06-13-2011 at 02:13 PM..
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Old 06-13-2011, 02:19 PM
 
6,657 posts, read 8,087,789 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Hey legoman....Romans 14:1 is a direct ref to Isa 45:23. In the beginning of Romans, Paul audience is clear as to whom he is speaking to, and it is not Gentiles, or people outside of the covenant lineage in Israel. Read:

Now I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that I often planned to come to you(but was hindered until now), that I might have some fruit among you also, just as among the other Gentiles/ethnos/nations.

Other Nations? Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles (Eph. 3:1). This was not so. He was the apostle to the nations of Israel who had been outside the covenant. They were called "the nations." The Greek word "ethnos" means "nations." The word "ethnos" should not be translated "Gentiles" unless the context requires it. It says that the Greek word "ethnos" is literally "nations." But our translations say that Paul was a prisoner of Jesus Christ "for you Gentiles." This is not historically accurate at all. Paul was referring to his house arrest which was the result of his preaching hope to Israel (Acts). The "nations" (or Israel) for which Paul was under house arrest was that part of Israel that was outside the covenants of promise....Paul had just referred to them in chapter 2. I am going to cite the passage and translate "ethnos" as "nations" according to its literal meaning:

11 Therefore remember that you, once nations in the fleshwho are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Rom 2:11-17

The "nations" here had reference to the uncircumcised of Israel. They were "without hope" and they were "strangers from the covenants of promise." Now I show the proof that they were Israelites. It says that Christ came and preached to them. Wait a minute! Christ did not come and preach to Gentiles. He came only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. In its historical context the "nations" that were called the "Uncircumcision" were those OF ISRAEL who had broken the covenant by their uncircumcision and were therefore "without hope." They were not legally God's people because their uncircumcision "cut them off from God and the people" (Abrahamic covenant). But Christ reconciled both the Circumcised and the Uncircumcised OF ISRAEL in His body. The Gentiles had not even come into the picture yet. There is no biblical evidence that Christ was brought to the Gentiles before the "JEW FIRST" mandate was completed. Please note that it is Jewish Christians that James said were the "firstfruits" of the harvest. You don't start gathering the rest of the crop until you FIRST have gathered ALL the firstfruits (of Israel).

In the meantime God was justifying Gentiles who had only the revelation of God in nature and who had heard nothing of Christ or baptism. So in essence, you using Romans 14:1 as a case for non-covenant bound people is most likely in error, because the entire book of Romans is addressed to the uncircumcision (Israel in the nations), and the issue with them coming into the fold of God under Christ, will bless the rest of humanity in the ages to come. Is this Universalism?....maybe so, but we have no Biblcal authority to establish this specific theme, from what is communicated in Romans, which were repeatedly hammered down through the prophets to Christ Himself, to elude to, of someone, like the unsaved pagan, who was never part of God's plan for all Israel. Yes indeed, he that is pagan is reconciled, because of all of this, but will he benefit in the blessings of what has transpired? Only if he serves I feel. He doesn't go to hell or anything like that, but his "afterlife" so to speak, may not be in the presence of God, like those who are caught up. He may come back and haunt one of us when we move into an old haunted and rickety house
Hi Sciotamicks,

While it is true Romans is addressed to "brethern" as you pointed out, this does not mean the content of what Paul talks about is limited in that sense, especially in Romans 11 for example where Paul talks about Israel/gentiles specifically, culminating with verse 30-32 where we see God has bound all people to disobedience so He may have mercy on all. I don't believe that is just talking about jews or only just gentiles, but all people. That is how it reads AISI.

Likewise Romans 14, Paul tells us "all will give account, for it is written... every knee will bend", etc. (paraphrased). Under your belief, are you saying all people don't give account, and all people won't bow? I don't see it that way.

Aside from Romans 14:11, Phil 2:9-11, Isaiah 45:22-23, we see in other places indicating literally everyone will acknowledge and praise God:

Psalm 22:27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
Psalm 22:29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
Rev 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”

Rev 15:4 Who will not fear you, Lord,
and bring glory to your name?
For you alone are holy.
All nations will come
and worship before you,
for your righteous acts have been revealed.


Also Psalm 66, 67, 96-100, etc.
Psalm 96:13 Let all creation rejoice before the LORD, for he comes,
he comes to judge the earth.

Just how I see it. Did God really declare everyone would bow before Him in worship and praise?

YES HE DID!

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Old 06-13-2011, 03:07 PM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
2,705 posts, read 3,108,034 times
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Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
"Did God really say..." Satan has been using it since the beginning and he sticks with it because it works.
Yup, tried & true. The old standby.
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Old 06-13-2011, 06:12 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,303 posts, read 6,405,263 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Hi Sciotamicks,

While it is true Romans is addressed to "brethern" as you pointed out, this does not mean the content of what Paul talks about is limited in that sense, especially in Romans 11 for example where Paul talks about Israel/gentiles specifically, culminating with verse 30-32 where we see God has bound all people to disobedience so He may have mercy on all. I don't believe that is just talking about jews or only just gentiles, but all people. That is how it reads AISI.

Likewise Romans 14, Paul tells us "all will give account, for it is written... every knee will bend", etc. (paraphrased). Under your belief, are you saying all people don't give account, and all people won't bow? I don't see it that way.

Aside from Romans 14:11, Phil 2:9-11, Isaiah 45:22-23, we see in other places indicating literally everyone will acknowledge and praise God:
Hey legoman...let's add the subjects to Roms 11 to get a better view of Paul's prose:

Rom 11:12, 15 Now if their [Israel's] fall is riches for the world [humanity], and their [Israel's] failure riches for the Gentiles [first-fruit saints Act 13:48; 15:14, 17], how much more their [Israel's] fullness! For if their [Israel's] being cast away [by God] is the reconciling of the world [humanity], what will their [Israel's] acceptance [by God] be but life from the dead?

Under my belief system, Israel already gave their account "according to their works" and "every knee bowed" phrases were never used for anyone outside of covenant...they had no covenant, thus, no works. Since what I have uncovered in my personal walk, I have come to understand that it was by this covenant, from start to finish, always had an "outworking" goal for mankind to come to know God. But it was by this covenant, that extended the blessings into the outer world for reconciliation, to benefit from and partake with Israel (the Covenant Body saved under Christ) their blessings and fruit. This was always the case since its inception, and now, because of the transgressions against God by the covenant body, or corporate Israel, have been rectified, and now realized in those who call on the Lord, because they are part of that covenant. Does this imply that the outer world is recitifed as well? I would hope so...that was the mission indeed, I mean Christ died for that plight and passage to expansion, but relying on passages that solely deal with Israel's resurrection and place it into a context otherwise, may lead to presuppositions that tend to stand apart from the "precursory" message that was meant in the first place. To bless mankind with the knowledge and dwelling place in God through Christ.

Every knee bowing unto Christ refers to the diaspora. Rom 14:11 and Phil 2:10 to Isaiah 45:23, read the context Isa 45:15-23 (those of Israel who made idols). From Gentile to those of Israel who made idols. The wall of Eph 2:11-19 was not the wall between God and man it was the John 10:16 to Eze 37:22...the context of Judah and Israel coming back together and having one king...John 10:16 to Eph 2:11-19 and Eze 37:24....This happened long ago, when Jew and Gentile (Judah and Israel) came to Christ, when their name was changed to Christian....and the temple fell to the ground, and those who followed not after Christ, were simply cut out, from the book of life. Book of life now....I would give an emphatic NO. That was for Israel.

Quote:
Did God really declare everyone would bow before Him in worship and praise?

YES HE DID!
Did....past tense Blessings legoman.
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Old 06-13-2011, 06:58 PM
 
6,657 posts, read 8,087,789 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Hey legoman...let's add the subjects to Roms 11 to get a better view of Paul's prose:

Rom 11:12, 15 Now if their [Israel's] fall is riches for the world [humanity], and their [Israel's] failure riches for the Gentiles [first-fruit saints Act 13:48; 15:14, 17], how much more their [Israel's] fullness! For if their [Israel's] being cast away [by God] is the reconciling of the world [humanity], what will their [Israel's] acceptance [by God] be but life from the dead?

Under my belief system, Israel already gave their account "according to their works" and "every knee bowed" phrases were never used for anyone outside of covenant...they had no covenant, thus, no works. Since what I have uncovered in my personal walk, I have come to understand that it was by this covenant, from start to finish, always had an "outworking" goal for mankind to come to know God. But it was by this covenant, that extended the blessings into the outer world for reconciliation, to benefit from and partake with Israel (the Covenant Body saved under Christ) their blessings and fruit. This was always the case since its inception, and now, because of the transgressions against God by the covenant body, or corporate Israel, have been rectified, and now realized in those who call on the Lord, because they are part of that covenant. Does this imply that the outer world is recitifed as well? I would hope so...that was the mission indeed, I mean Christ died for that plight and passage to expansion, but relying on passages that solely deal with Israel's resurrection and place it into a context otherwise, may lead to presuppositions that tend to stand apart from the "precursory" message that was meant in the first place. To bless mankind with the knowledge and dwelling place in God through Christ.

Every knee bowing unto Christ refers to the diaspora. Rom 14:11 and Phil 2:10 to Isaiah 45:23, read the context Isa 45:15-23 (those of Israel who made idols). From Gentile to those of Israel who made idols. The wall of Eph 2:11-19 was not the wall between God and man it was the John 10:16 to Eze 37:22...the context of Judah and Israel coming back together and having one king...John 10:16 to Eph 2:11-19 and Eze 37:24....This happened long ago, when Jew and Gentile (Judah and Israel) came to Christ, when their name was changed to Christian....and the temple fell to the ground, and those who followed not after Christ, were simply cut out, from the book of life. Book of life now....I would give an emphatic NO. That was for Israel.



Did....past tense Blessings legoman.
You know what sciotamicks? That was a really good post! Thank you for sharing your view as you see it. I may not see it entirely the same way, but I can understand some of what you are saying. Your manner really has changed on here lately sciotamicks, and I am enjoying and understanding your posts much more.

I see a covenant with God's people in scripture too. I just see it, that part of that covenant with His people (the "elect") is to bless everyone else and ultimately bring them to God as well.

Blessings to you too...
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Old 06-13-2011, 07:15 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,303 posts, read 6,405,263 times
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Originally Posted by legoman View Post
You know what sciotamicks? That was a really good post! Thank you for sharing your view as you see it. I may not see it entirely the same way, but I can understand some of what you are saying. Your manner really has changed on here lately sciotamicks, and I am enjoying and understanding your posts much more.

I see a covenant with God's people in scripture too. I just see it, that part of that covenant with His people (the "elect") is to bless everyone else and ultimately bring them to God as well.

Blessings to you too...
Right on legoman...on your last statement, isn't that why Christ came?
Blessings..
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Old 06-16-2011, 09:08 AM
 
488 posts, read 1,245,574 times
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people wish to hear what they want to hear. Eternal life and salvation is as plainly described in the Bible as eternal punishment. There are clearly many people who are over-optimistic and being over-opitimistic they live in a world of make believe thinking that it will be "more than happy end" any way, no matter what. all will be treated alike. one way to heaven. period. The problem is this is not God's word. God is LOVE, sure, but He is also JUST. and if he said 'okay, 'let's turn a blind eye to unrepented sins', his justice would be broken. we know that God made a covenant with Adam in the garden of Eden. it was not unconditional!! Blessings for obedience, and curse for disobedience! Sadly Adam (on the advice of Eve) chose the latter.. consequntly Sin entered the world. If God had acted like "okay let's turn a blind eye to your disobedience" would He not have broken his word? his conditional covenant?! so what was the solution to save mankind any way? the redemption that he did out of his love towards mankind.. sending the savior into the world at the appropriate time. that's what the gospel says anyway, doesn't it? For God so Loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life?
Can you reject his offer of salvation? since you have free will, you can! in this case it is you who will send yourself to hell and not God. Jesus did all he could do. He died for us! if someone has the cheek to reject it, they cannot be saved from punishment (which is of course eternal just like heaven is eternal)
Anyway, end-times prophecy is clearly the word of God and unmistakably described in the Bible, (well once someone denies the Bible is the word of God, all in vain...) plus world events serve as proof that everything is being fulfilled. those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, should have realized by now. it's just that people like the seductions of this world, they are infatuated with this world and believing that my good and bad choices have no consequences for we will be saved anyway is a Satanic teaching that gives you the feeling to focus on the world, serve two masters, for you have nothing to lose.
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Old 06-16-2011, 09:17 AM
 
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Originally Posted by doesntspringtomind View Post
people wish to hear what they want to hear. Eternal life and salvation is as plainly described in the Bible as eternal punishment.

Actually it is not , life is described in the bible as periods of time all through it.
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