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Old 06-13-2011, 11:54 AM
 
6,557 posts, read 5,150,006 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
According to UR's, "damnation" does not mean "damnation". "Hell" does not mean "hell". "Eternal" does not mean "eternal". But, of course, "all" certainly means "all".
Well, don't ET'ers do the same thing?

"All" doesn't mean all, it means only the elect. And "everlasting" means eternally, never mind the Greek aion means only a period of time.
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Old 06-13-2011, 11:55 AM
 
9,502 posts, read 5,156,714 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbmsu01 View Post
I believe UR is a problem because it allows people to openly reject Christ and perform evil acts without any consequences..
I can agree with this statement. Call it for what it is.

God does not forgive those who reject. John wrote:

1 John 4:6
We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

I can recognize when somebody doesn't listen. No one is guilty of judging when those who aren't from God identify themselves.
It's there for everyone to see.

Mark wrote that Jesus said: "whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.” Mark 3:9


Those who aren't from God, who have the spirit of falsehood, will do whatever manuever to accuse Mark (ultimatly accusing Jesus) that no you're wrong about that ... "never be forgiven \guilty of an eternal sin".
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Old 06-13-2011, 12:03 PM
 
9,502 posts, read 5,156,714 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Well, don't ET'ers do the same thing?

"All" doesn't mean all, it means only the elect. And "everlasting" means eternally, never mind the Greek aion means only a period of time.
Us "that listen to God" don't accuse him of being unfair and come up with an alternative plan of salvation like what UR'ers do to resolve their problem about those who reject the truth.

UR'ers have the problem with words... not us who listen to God.
You don't have a problem with "everlasting" when it comes to heaven...do you?

I bet you don't think of yourself only being in heaven for a limited time once you're there ... do you?
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Old 06-13-2011, 12:22 PM
 
6,557 posts, read 5,150,006 times
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Finally located a very interesting quotation regarding the use of the idea of eternal torment as a means of mass-control:

Quote:
Classic scholars know that the heathen hell was early copied by the Catholic church, and that almost its entire details afterwards entered into the creeds of Catholic and Protestant churches up to a century ago. Any reader may see this who will consult Pagan literature. And not only this, but the heathen writers declare that the doctrine [of eternal punishment] was invented to awe and control the multitude.

Polybius writes:

"Since the multitude is ever fickle there is no other way to keep them in order but by fear of the invisible world; on which account our ancestors seem to me to have acted judiciously, when they contrived to bring into the popular belief these notions of the gods and of the infernal regions."

Seneca says:

"Those things which make the infernal regions terrible, the darkness, the prison, the river of flaming fire, the judgment seat, etc., are all a fable."

Livy declares that Numa invented the doctrine,

"a most effective means of governing an ignorant and barbarous populace."

Strabo writes:

"The multitude are restrained from vice by the punishments the gods are said to inflict upon offenders, for it is impossible to govern the crowd of women and all the common rabble by philosophical reasoning: these things the legislators used as scarecrows to terrify the childish multitude."

Similar language is found in Dionysius Halicarnassus, Plato, and other writers. History records nothing more distinctly than that the Greek and Roman Pagans borrowed of the Egyptians, and that some of the early Christians unconsciously absorbed, or thoroughly appropriated, the doctrines of the Egyptians, Greeks and Romans concerning post-mortem punishment, and gradually corrupted the "simplicity that is in Christ" by the inventions of antiquity, as from the same sources the Jews at the time of Christ had already corrupted their religion. What more natural than that the small reservoir of Christian truth should be contaminated by the opinions that converts from all these sources brought with them into their new religion at first, and later that the Roman Catholic priests and Pagan legislators should seize them as engines of power by which to control the world?
Dye-in-the-wool ET'ers refuse to acknowledge or simply shut their eyes to these plain, historically proven facts and blindly go on claiming, "The Bible preaches eternal torment for the unsaved. Final answer!" Has any of those actively posting in favor of ET ever actually made a conscious effort to examine the evidence for UR, line it up side by side with ET and make an unbiased comparison? Somehow I have my doubts.
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Old 06-13-2011, 12:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Well, don't ET'ers do the same thing?

"All" doesn't mean all, it means only the elect. And "everlasting" means eternally, never mind the Greek aion means only a period of time.
The Word declares that God "will have all men to be saved". If we rightly divide the truth, then we can compare it to:

2 Peter 3
[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Therefore, we can conclude that God desires for all to come to repentance to receive the remission of sins. Does that mean all will embrace His desire?

2 Peter 2
[4] For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
[5] And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
[6] And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Once God's longsuffering and mercy ends, then judgement comes to the ungodly; there's no more mercy to be offered in this life nor in the one to come.

Matthew 12
[32] And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
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Old 06-13-2011, 12:31 PM
 
6,557 posts, read 5,150,006 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Us "that listen to God" don't accuse him of being unfair and come up with an alternative plan of salvation like what UR'ers do to resolve their problem about those who reject the truth.

UR'ers have the problem with words... not us who listen to God.
You don't have a problem with "everlasting" when it comes to heaven...do you?

I bet you don't think of yourself only being in heaven for a limited time once you're there ... do you?
There you go again...claiming that ONLY ET'ers listen to God; that everyone else listens to the devil. Such.....well, again, I can't say the words for fear of being lashed by the Mods----who, by the way, do an excellent job of moderating these boards.
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Old 06-13-2011, 12:33 PM
 
2,250 posts, read 2,645,164 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post

Yes. Universal Restoration (or Universal Redemption, if one prefers) does not allow for sinners marching scott-free into heaven upon death. They undergo a cleansing by fire process, as it were, until their dross has been purged and their spirits have been refined to 100% purity, and that cleansing process can last nearly as long as eternity itself if that's what it takes to bring them to a completed state of repentance and understanding of the magnificence and love of God.
John 5
[28] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
[29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Instead of using the word damnation, why didn't Jesus say "and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of spiritual fire, to burn the sin out of them"?
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Old 06-13-2011, 12:38 PM
 
6,557 posts, read 5,150,006 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
John 5
[28] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
[29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Instead of using the word damnation, why didn't Jesus say "and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of spiritual fire, to burn the sin out of them"?
You have to read my post #77 where I explain that Jesus NEVER used a word to denote endless torment and suffering. EVERY reference He made to punishment was of the temporary, corrective type, not the type that goes on endlessly.
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Old 06-13-2011, 02:23 PM
 
Location: san francisco
2,059 posts, read 2,006,592 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Finally located a very interesting quotation regarding the use of the idea of eternal torment as a means of mass-control:



Dye-in-the-wool ET'ers refuse to acknowledge or simply shut their eyes to these plain, historically proven facts and blindly go on claiming, "The Bible preaches eternal torment for the unsaved. Final answer!" Has any of those actively posting in favor of ET ever actually made a conscious effort to examine the evidence for UR, line it up side by side with ET and make an unbiased comparison? Somehow I have my doubts.
So do we toss the entire book of Revelation? What about the rest of the Bible? Toss it too? When and where exactly do we know the Catholic Church manipulated the Scriptures?
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Old 06-13-2011, 02:51 PM
 
23,193 posts, read 11,405,957 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by migol84 View Post
So do we toss the entire book of Revelation? What about the rest of the Bible? Toss it too? When and where exactly do we know the Catholic Church manipulated the Scriptures?
You test the "Spirit" of the interpretations against Christ's commands to "love God and each other" using 1Cor 13 as the standard "spirit detector." ANYTHING that is in violation of that standard is NOT of God, period. No excuses, mysteries, or other rationalizations allowed. If it violates 1 Cor 13 . . . it is NOT of God and needs to be reinterpreted to fit. Any proclaimed motive of God that does not meet the standard is wrong.
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