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Old 06-25-2011, 09:03 AM
 
3,049 posts, read 2,942,214 times
Reputation: 1217
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rlarson21 View Post
that's where it doesnt' make any sense. comparing our sexual orinetatios to a drug addiction is weird and makes absolutely no sense? are you married, dating someone? is dating someone or being in love with someone similar to a drug addiction? is existing as YOURSELF a drug addiction? a sexual orientation is a CORE part of our IDENTITIES. a DRUG addiction (obviously to most) is something completely different.

and WHY the Heck would I have a 'heterosexual' marriage. I'm not a heterosexual. To have one would be CRUEL to the person I married. IF something is made up BY HETEROSEXUALS (from their point of view) saying I have to have a HETEROSEXUAL marriage when I"m not one... hmmm, that kind smacks of EGO, believeing that since I"M a certain way EVERYONE ELSE MUST be and people who are different are inferior/wrong/evil etc.

That's like if a gay person wrote parts of the Bible and said that any NON gay relationship was NOT ok, and then telling straighit people that that came from GOD. (really the ego)
It's interesting how you say I am comparing your sexual orientation to a drug addict. You aren't getting my point. Drug addict or any type of behavior that's contrary to God is SIN. One can be born gay, straight, bi, or even worse a pedophile, but being born those ways doesn't justify any SEXUAL BEHAVIOR CONTRARY to how God wants us to live our lives for Him. I guess the best way to put it is like this. I am born a serial cheater. I get married, and tell my spouse that she has to accept my cheating because I was just born that way. It boils down to us not being able to do just what ever we want out of our own selfishness toward God. If God said it, and if the bible teaches it, then I am not going to give my own opinion about the matter to justify my behavior. It's as simple as that.

But also, all of the examples of marriage in the bible have been between a man and a woman. When homosexuality is spoken of in the bible, it's spoken of as something that is not pleasing to God and the end result is judgment of some kind--either by death, destruction or worse, eternal separation from God. Sodom and Gommorah comes to mind, as well as the verse that says God will not be mocked, and then there are a whole list of sin, not just homosexuality, that are mentioned, and then it's stated that those who engage in those sins will not inherit the kingdom of God. That to me, makes one go..hummmmmmmmmmmm?

I wouldn't expect a gay person to marry a woman unless, he's bi and can abstain from engaging in homosexual sex. I have said this before, if you are gay, and you are a christian, then it's impossible for a christian gay person to justify his homosexual sexual practices as right, when the bible is clear that any sex outside of a heterosexual marriage is sin. So the only thing that a gau person could do is live a celibate life, and glorify God by remaining celibate.

Last edited by antredd; 06-25-2011 at 09:12 AM..

 
Old 06-25-2011, 09:26 AM
 
3,049 posts, read 2,942,214 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiyero View Post
And those Christians would be ignoring Paul who says celibacy is a gift most people don't have and if they don't, they should marry to control their sexual urges. Gays have absolutely no remedy.

The other glaring problem being the overwhelming majority of Christians have never bothered to research the Biblical context of the 5 "anti-gay" verses. They are content to quote a modern English translation out of context and say, see gays are evil!


Perhaps you need to read 1 Corinthians 7. Paul specifically says most people cannot live a celibate life as it is a gift from God that not everyone has.

Do you really think God created hundreds of millions of gay people with no option but to be alone and incapable of being in a loving relationship? It's one thing if a person feels a calling to be a minster and live a celibate life to better serve God. But you are saying that every single person in human history who was born gay, was born to be alone and sexually frustrated.
Last time I checked, we don't need to have sex. I see how so many people think that sex is a need like food is, and they rank it as a necessity. We, as a people, have become so sex crazed out of control that we start to justify that any other type of sex outside of a heterosexual marriage is now right. Our culture pretty much says that we can have premarital sex, and have multiple sex partners, and even when we are married we can even swing. NOW THAT'S CRAZY. The bible in no way, shape or form teaches that we should be engaging in any sex outside of a monogamous marriage between a man and a woman.

It's interesting how every time I give a Christian's perspective on this topic, a gay person comes back at me and says how it's not fair that gays have to live a life sexually frustrated. Again, you are doing what all of us, me included, who want to do what the heck we want to do our of our selfishness and rebelliousness against God. If, in your opinion, you truly think that having gay sex isn't wrong, then okay. WE JUST LET GOD BE THE JUDGE OF IT. Who am I to tell you how to live your life. All that I am doing is simply giving you a christian perspective on this topic without being judgmental nor combative toward you out of love, as God has commanded me to do.
 
Old 06-25-2011, 09:31 AM
 
10,320 posts, read 3,306,021 times
Reputation: 3346
Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd View Post
It's interesting how you say I am comparing your sexual orientation to a drug addict. You aren't getting my point. Drug addict or any type of behavior that's contrary to God is SIN. One can be born gay, straight, bi, or even worse a pedophile, but being born those ways doesn't justify any SEXUAL BEHAVIOR CONTRARY to how God wants us to live our lives for Him. I guess the best way to put it is like this. I am born a serial cheater. I get married, and tell my spouse that she has to accept my cheating because I was just born that way. It boils down to us not being able to do just what ever we want out of our own selfishness toward God. If God said it, and if the bible teaches it, then I am not going to give my own opinion about the matter to justify my behavior. It's as simple as that.
Why do you assume your English reading of the Bible is what God said and what the Bible teaches. You are aware the Bible was not written in 21st Century English correct? Are you under the mistaken impression that Classical Hebrew and Greek translates well into English, or that cultural context is irrelevant?

Also, your notion about behavior, while true in certain matters, seems to be contradicted by the Bible on the gay issue. Paul himself says the majority of humanity was not given the gift of celibacy. If a person is born gay (in that they have absolutely no physical attraction to the opposite sex), and according to Paul, they are not capable of celibacy, they are better off marrying. And yet, conservative conservatives are doing everything in their power to stop gays from following Paul's command.

So what do you propose if 1) They can't be celibate, 2) They can't marry the same-sex and 3) Marrying the opposite sex would lead to divorce and adultery?

You've left no Biblical remedy for gay people.

Quote:
But also, all of the examples of marriage in the bible have been between a man and a woman.
Actually, most biblical examples of marriage have been polygamous or incestuous relationships. The patriarchs all married multiple girls (10-14 years old), and incest was completely legal in Genesis. Girls/women were deemed property and were owned by their husbands. Marriages between foreigners was also strictly forbidden. None of which is a marriage example I believe we should follow.

Quote:
When homosexuality is spoken of in the bible, it's spoken of as something that is not pleasing to God
Homosexuality is never mentioned in the Bible. The concept didn't exist until 1900 A.D. What the Bible speaks about only a few times, is pagan prostitution, pederasty, and rape. None of which represent homosexuality.

Quote:
and the end result is judgment of some kind--either by death, destruction or worse, eternal separation from God.
Never in the Torah or the Talmud was a man charged with homosexuality. I don't think you're understanding the meaning of the Jewish law.

Quote:
Sodom and Gommorah comes to mind, as well as the verse that says God
Sodom and Gomorrah had absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality. Lack of hospitality was the sin of Sodom. Also read Judges 19. It's nearly the same scenario as the Sodom story, but completely dispells the homosexuality myth.

Ezekiel 16:49-50
"'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.


Quote:
will not be mocked, and then there are a whole list of sin, not just homosexuality, that are mentioned, and then it's stated that those who engage in those sins will not inherit the kingdom of God. That to me, makes one go..hummmmmmmmmmmm?
If you're referring to 1 Corinthians 6:9, homosexuality was not added to that verse until 1958. It was a biased alteration by Bible publishers. It doesn't exist in the originals.

Quote:
I wouldn't expect a gay person to marry a woman unless, he's bi and can abstain from engaging in homosexual sex. I have said this before, if you are gay, and you are a christian, then it's impossible for a christian gay person to justify his homosexual sexual practices as right, when the bible is clear that any sex outside of a heterosexual marriage is sin. So the only thing that a gau person could do is live a celibate life, and glorify God by remaining celibate.
Except Paul says that most people don't have the gift of celibacy. So you are wrong, even according to the Bible. I see absolutely no Biblical evidence that a loving God would force hundreds of millions of people to live a life of celibacy and loneliness. It's one thing if people feel a calling to be celibate, like in the priesthood. Although, as evident by the catholic church scandals, celibacy is nearly impossible for most humans. Why did God give gay people a sex drive? Where does God ever say he planned every gay person on this planet to be miserable and go against their nature to try and live a celibate life?
 
Old 06-25-2011, 09:51 AM
 
3,049 posts, read 2,942,214 times
Reputation: 1217
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiyero View Post
Why do you assume your English reading of the Bible is what God said and what the Bible teaches. You are aware the Bible was not written in 21st Century English correct? Are you under the mistaken impression that Classical Hebrew and Greek translates well into English, or that cultural context is irrelevant?

Also, your notion about behavior, while true in certain matters, seems to be contradicted by the Bible on the gay issue. Paul himself says the majority of humanity was not given the gift of celibacy. If a person is born gay (in that they have absolutely no physical attraction to the opposite sex), and according to Paul, they are not capable of celibacy, they are better off marrying. And yet, conservative conservatives are doing everything in their power to stop gays from following Paul's command.

So what do you propose if 1) They can't be celibate, 2) They can't marry the same-sex and 3) Marrying the opposite sex would lead to divorce and adultery?

You've left no Biblical remedy for gay people.

Actually, most biblical examples of marriage have been polygamous or incestuous relationships. The patriarchs all married multiple girls (10-14 years old), and incest was completely legal in Genesis. Girls/women were deemed property and were owned by their husbands. Marriages between foreigners was also strictly forbidden. None of which is a marriage example I believe we should follow.

Homosexuality is never mentioned in the Bible. The concept didn't exist until 1900 A.D. What the Bible speaks about only a few times, is pagan prostitution, pederasty, and rape. None of which represent homosexuality.

Never in the Torah or the Talmud was a man charged with homosexuality. I don't think you're understanding the meaning of the Jewish law.

Sodom and Gomorrah had absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality. Lack of hospitality was the sin of Sodom. Also read Judges 19. It's nearly the same scenario as the Sodom story, but completely dispells the homosexuality myth.

Ezekiel 16:49-50
"'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.


If you're referring to 1 Corinthians 6:9, homosexuality was not added to that verse until 1958. It was a biased alteration by Bible publishers. It doesn't exist in the originals.

Except Paul says that most people don't have the gift of celibacy. So you are wrong, even according to the Bible. I see absolutely no Biblical evidence that a loving God would force hundreds of millions of people to live a life of celibacy and loneliness. It's one thing if people feel a calling to be celibate, like in the priesthood. Although, as evident by the catholic church scandals, celibacy is nearly impossible for most humans. Why did God give gay people a sex drive? Where does God ever say he planned every gay person on this planet to be miserable and go against their nature to try and live a celibate life?
You are absolutely right in that any translation outside of the original Hebrew and Greek Scriptures are not God's inspired word. You are right that there is no word in Greek for homosexuality. But how do you get around the fact that all of the examples on marriage that are mentioned in the bible are mentioned only between a man and a woman?

As far as a remedy for a gay person, I thought I made that quite clear. If you believe on Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, and allow the Holy Spirit to control your life, then perhaps you wouldn't be thinking about your own selfish lust of having sex with the same sex. Perhaps you would be so filled with God's holy spirit that they desire to have sex with a men would be so reduced to a minimum that they urge to engage in that behavior would result in you praising God, glorifying Him for allowing you to adhere to strict obedience to Him, because you see the reward when you life is over, which is far more greater than anything we enjoy on this earth.
 
Old 06-25-2011, 10:27 AM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
2,705 posts, read 1,252,124 times
Reputation: 809
Quote:
You were born with the desire for heterosexual sex, but how come it's not a sin if YOU 'act on it'.
It can be a sin, depending on the circumstance.
 
Old 06-25-2011, 10:42 AM
 
2,010 posts, read 1,526,728 times
Reputation: 916
Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd View Post
It's interesting how you say I am comparing your sexual orientation to a drug addict. You aren't getting my point. Drug addict or any type of behavior that's contrary to God is SIN. One can be born gay, straight, bi, or even worse a pedophile, but being born those ways doesn't justify any SEXUAL BEHAVIOR CONTRARY to how God wants us to live our lives for Him. I guess the best way to put it is like this. I am born a serial cheater. I get married, and tell my spouse that she has to accept my cheating because I was just born that way. It boils down to us not being able to do just what ever we want out of our own selfishness toward God. If God said it, and if the bible teaches it, then I am not going to give my own opinion about the matter to justify my behavior. It's as simple as that.

But also, all of the examples of marriage in the bible have been between a man and a woman. When homosexuality is spoken of in the bible, it's spoken of as something that is not pleasing to God and the end result is judgment of some kind--either by death, destruction or worse, eternal separation from God. Sodom and Gommorah comes to mind, as well as the verse that says God will not be mocked, and then there are a whole list of sin, not just homosexuality, that are mentioned, and then it's stated that those who engage in those sins will not inherit the kingdom of God. That to me, makes one go..hummmmmmmmmmmm?

I wouldn't expect a gay person to marry a woman unless, he's bi and can abstain from engaging in homosexual sex. I have said this before, if you are gay, and you are a christian, then it's impossible for a christian gay person to justify his homosexual sexual practices as right, when the bible is clear that any sex outside of a heterosexual marriage is sin. So the only thing that a gau person could do is live a celibate life, and glorify God by remaining celibate.
Well put!
I see scriptures differently than I used to, but you make a good point about CHOICE. Homosexuality is the desire for or sexual behavior with one of the same sex. Desire may not completely be choice... although, even that's arguable, since we can choose our thoughts. Behavior is very much choice & anybody who lies & says they can't help themselves will be dished out their consequences, whether they choose it or not. Consequences are not a choice. And statistically, (according to the US CDC) homosexuals have more sexual partners than heterosexuals so they have higher percentages of STD & AIDS cases.

Also what you mentioned about sex not being a need is important to note, especially in our sex-addicted society/media.
 
Old 06-25-2011, 11:11 AM
 
10,320 posts, read 3,306,021 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd View Post
You are absolutely right in that any translation outside of the original Hebrew and Greek Scriptures are not God's inspired word. You are right that there is no word in Greek for homosexuality. But how do you get around the fact that all of the examples on marriage that are mentioned in the bible are mentioned only between a man and a woman?
Easily. The Bible is directed at the majority audience of the time. Seeing as gay people was an unknown concept, the Bible is not going to mention them. 95+% of Jesus and Paul's audience would have been heterosexuals, and their natural inclincation would be to marry someone of the opposite sex. Therefore, that's what the Bible discusses. Keep in mind, polygamy and marriage to underage girls who were property was the norm in Biblical days. The modern day form of marriage found in the United States didn't exist until it came from England in the late 18th Century.

The Bible does not try to incorporate every exception to every rule, otherwise it would be prohibitively large. For example intersex individuals, who have both genitalia, or XXY or other chromosomal abnormalities are not mentioned in the Bible. Who can they marry? Bible doesn't say. Reason being? They were unknown back then.

Quote:
As far as a remedy for a gay person, I thought I made that quite clear. If you believe on Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, and allow the Holy Spirit to control your life, then perhaps you wouldn't be thinking about your own selfish lust of having sex with the same sex. Perhaps you would be so filled with God's holy spirit that they desire to have sex with a men would be so reduced to a minimum that they urge to engage in that behavior would result in you praising God, glorifying Him for allowing you to adhere to strict obedience to Him, because you see the reward when you life is over, which is far more greater than anything we enjoy on this earth.
And what about those who have prayed to God for decades to remove those urges, or help them with the issue, and he always says no? Do you seriously think Christians who are gay have never brought this issue before God or struggled with it constantly, to no avail? You seem to think every single gay person who also believes in God is just willfully ignoring him to pursue hedonistic activity.

I know someone who has prayed to God daily for 40+ years about his being gay and whether God is ok with it (and he's been in a monogamous same-sex relationship for most of that time), and he says God always reassures him that he's fine with it. And yet he still continues to pray every night about it.

You, like most conservatives, will no doubt claim Satan is deceiving him. But I can just as easily say Satan is making you believe God despises homosexuality as a weapon to turn gay people away from God (and it's working).
 
Old 06-25-2011, 11:14 AM
 
10,320 posts, read 3,306,021 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theophane View Post
It can be a sin, depending on the circumstance.
It can be, but there are remedies for straights to deal with that. Apparently not so for gays.

It's also so easy for those who can enjoy the beauty of love and companionship to tell gay people, "just deal with being alone for the sake of God".

Maybe if the shoe was on the other foot, Christians might have more compassion for gays.
 
Old 06-25-2011, 11:23 AM
 
10,320 posts, read 3,306,021 times
Reputation: 3346
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSoul View Post
Well put!
I see scriptures differently than I used to, but you make a good point about CHOICE. Homosexuality is the desire for or sexual behavior with one of the same sex. Desire may not completely be choice... although, even that's arguable, since we can choose our thoughts.
You can't choose attraction. If a beautiful woman walks by you, you don't stop and think "Hmm, let me decide if that woman is going to be beautiful to me or not". Your brain instantly reacts and you feel a reaction to her looks, without any voluntary action.

Quote:
Behavior is very much choice & anybody who lies & says they can't help themselves will be dished out their consequences, whether they choose it or not. Consequences are not a choice. And statistically, (according to the US CDC) homosexuals have more sexual partners than heterosexuals so they have higher percentages of STD & AIDS cases.
Behavior is a choice, but I disagree with your promiscuity stats. Paul Cameron (the famed anti-gay fraud) is the one who spread the myth about gays being more promiscuous. And you also seem to only care about US stats on AIDS and STDs. No doubt to distort the world wide statistics on the issue. Worldwide, 75% of HIV and AIDS cases are among heterosexuals. Lesbians also have the lowest rates of STDs/AIDS in the US, and they are gay. So your notion that homosexuals have higher rates of STDs is wrong. Lesbians have the lowest.

Quote:
Also what you mentioned about sex not being a need is important to note, especially in our sex-addicted society/media.
I'm not sure about that. According to scientific studies, men who have sex more often have half the mortality rate of those who remain abstinent. And according to the famous Maslow's hierarchy of needs, sex is in the most important category (physiological needs) along with breathing, water, food, and sleep.

Biologically speaking, sex is very very important. It wasn't very nice of God to make sexuality one of the most powerful biological forces on Earth if he was going to forbid large chunks of the population from it.
 
Old 06-25-2011, 11:36 AM
 
2,250 posts, read 2,545,298 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiyero View Post
Easily. The Bible is directed at the majority audience of the time. Seeing as gay people was an unknown concept, the Bible is not going to mention them. 95+% of Jesus and Paul's audience would have been heterosexuals, and their natural inclincation would be to marry someone of the opposite sex. Therefore, that's what the Bible discusses.
You can dispute the Word of God all day long, but it won't change any thing. Fact is, those who continue to fulfill the lusts of the flesh, like homosexuality, will be eternally damned. You might as well accept it now than to be surprised later.

Galatians 5:24 - And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
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