Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Closed Thread Start New Thread
 
Old 06-18-2011, 01:12 PM
 
Location: san francisco
2,057 posts, read 3,853,434 times
Reputation: 819

Advertisements

I'd like to think what everyone here thinks on this matter and how everyone understands the two. Personally, I get confused. Oneness, is all entities in one God and Trinity is God in all three entities. It sounds the same to me in a sense. I don't know.

What do you guys think?

Here's a Youtube video I found of one of the premiere apologists in the Oneness debate, David K Bernard (a very smart man) debating Dr Robert Morey.

I think David Bernard gives a very insightful perspective on why it is the Oneness deity the early apostles preached and teach. Anyways, have a look. I found it a delight to listen to these two. Both very intelligent.


YouTube - ‪Is UPCI a Cult? (David K. Bernard vs. Robert Morey 1/7)‬‏

 
Old 06-18-2011, 04:04 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,890 posts, read 26,112,025 times
Reputation: 16012
Quote:
Originally Posted by migol84 View Post
I'd like to think what everyone here thinks on this matter and how everyone understands the two. Personally, I get confused. Oneness, is all entities in one God and Trinity is God in all three entities. It sounds the same to me in a sense. I don't know.

What do you guys think?

Here's a Youtube video I found of one of the premiere apologists in the Oneness debate, David K Bernard (a very smart man) debating Dr Robert Morey.

I think David Bernard gives a very insightful perspective on why it is the Oneness deity the early apostles preached and teach. Anyways, have a look. I found it a delight to listen to these two. Both very intelligent.


YouTube - ‪Is UPCI a Cult? (David K. Bernard vs. Robert Morey 1/7)‬‏
I didn't watch the video as it takes a long time to download with my dialup connection and old computer.

God is triune. There are three Persons within the Godhead. They are One in the sense that they all possess the exact same essence. The threefold title of the Godhead --- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit under the one Name of ''God'' (Matt 28:19) affirms both oneness and equality.

The essence of God consists of His Sovereignty, Righteousness, Justice, Love, Eternal Life, Omniscience, Omnipresence, Omnipotence, Immutability, and Veracity.

For example, with regard to the Sovereignty of God, God is the Supreme Being of the Universe, King of heaven and earth. He has absolute authority and volition. Concerning the First Person of the Trinity, Psalms 83:18 states '...Thou alone, whose name is the LORD, art the Most High over all the earth.' Concerning the Second Person of the trinity, The Son affirmed His own sovereignty in Matthew 28:18, '...''All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.' Jesus being given authority does not imply that in their nature there is any inequality within the Godhead, but rather, it has to do with the pre-designed plan of God in which the Second Person of the trinity agreed to become a member of the human race and submit Himself to the will of the Father in carrying out the Father's plan. And as a result --- 'Therefore also God (the Father) highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.' (Phil 2:9-11). Concerning the Third Person of the trinity, as soverneign, the Holy Spirit distributes spiritual gifts 'to each one individually just as He wills' (1 Cor 12:11).

The nature of God is that all three Persons of the Godhead are co-equal and co-eternal. It is only with regard to their plan of salvation that the Second Person of the Trinity assumes a position of obedience to the Father in the execution of their plan for man.

The Scriptures are abundantly clear throughout that God is a triune Being. But to keep this post short, I will end it here.
 
Old 06-18-2011, 05:34 PM
 
Location: Arizona
28,956 posts, read 16,164,395 times
Reputation: 2295
Jesus is his own father, and it was his Spirit that was conceived within himself?


 
Old 06-18-2011, 06:13 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
9,455 posts, read 12,470,152 times
Reputation: 16449
The concept of the Trinity is based on what the Bible teaches. The doctrine of the trinity is not stated in one sentence per se, but rather like this. If A=B and B=C then A=C. So we have scriptures that say Jesus is God such as John 1:1 and 1:14 plus Phil 2:5-8. Other scriptures say the Holy Spirit is God such as Romans 8:9-11, 2Cor 3:3 and 17-18 plus Acts 5:3-4. This is the short list. There are more scriptures that support the deity of Christ and the Holy Spirit

There are a number of scriptures that state the same attribute for God and Jesus. Jesus and God cannot both possess these particular attributes, unless they are one and the same.

Compare what is said about God and Jesus:

As Creator of all things:
God: Genesis 1:1
Jesus: Colossians 1:16

As Savior
God: Isaiah 43:11
Jesus: Titus 3:6

The Alpha and Omega:
God: Revelation 21:6
Jesus: Revelation 22:13

The First and the Last:
God: Isaiah 44:6
Jesus: Revelation 1:17 & 2:8

Every Knee Shall Bow to me:

God: Isaiah 45:23
Jesus: Philippians 2:10-11

**********
And FYI I attend a Pentecostal church and they believe in the Trinity
 
Old 06-18-2011, 06:29 PM
 
Location: Wilkes Barre,Pa
11 posts, read 51,854 times
Reputation: 11
Why, for thousands of years, did none of Gods prophets teach his people about the Trrinity? At the latest, would Jesus not use his ability as the Great teacher to make the Trinity clear to his followers? Would God inspire hundreds of pages of Scripture and yet not use any of this insttruction to teach the Trinity if it were the central doctrine of faith?

The testimony of history is clear. The Trinity teaching is a deviation from the truth, an apostatizing from it.
 
Old 06-18-2011, 06:32 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,920,202 times
Reputation: 336
Here is an excellent doctrinal position on the Oneness of God:

The Oneness of God
 
Old 06-18-2011, 07:50 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
9,455 posts, read 12,470,152 times
Reputation: 16449
Quote:
Originally Posted by PA 1947 View Post
Why, for thousands of years, did none of Gods prophets teach his people about the Trrinity? At the latest, would Jesus not use his ability as the Great teacher to make the Trinity clear to his followers? Would God inspire hundreds of pages of Scripture and yet not use any of this insttruction to teach the Trinity if it were the central doctrine of faith?

The testimony of history is clear. The Trinity teaching is a deviation from the truth, an apostatizing from it.
So in your opinion, the Holy Spirit is not God?
 
Old 06-18-2011, 07:59 PM
 
284 posts, read 305,769 times
Reputation: 51
I listened to the presentation and felt that Dr Moray’s summarizing conclusion that the “the trinity is incomprehensible” adds nothing to any debate. I did think that Bernards example of “the blind man and the elephant” was appropriate since both those who believe in a “three is really one individual” Godhead and those who believe in a “three is really three individuals” both have biblical bases upon which they interpret their views. One ends up describing the three as individuals and the other ends up describing the three as a single "essence". Multiple beliefs are based on the same bible, however different individuals interpret their pet scriptures differently.

Dr. Moray refers to a trinity consistent with “historic christianity” but then never defines WHICH time period he's referring to. This matters since certain doctrines concerning God’s nature were not yet defined by a corporate and organized church even by Origen’s time. If one speaks of 1st century Judao-Christianity, then Judao-Christian texts spoke historically of the Father; son and holy Ghost more as individuals who were unified in purpose, whereas the later christians spoke historically of the three in a personal unification. Thus, when Moray speaks of christianities which do not agree with the later “creeds” the later christianities developed, he limits his historical time period to a later date when the earliest normative christians can no longer qualify as “orthodox”.

Neither spoke of the rhetorical and logical use of biblical text by those taking the various positions (which is the very data from which most of the confusion arises and over which most of the debates rage). I felt that this specific debate introduced no new data and that it didn’t even discuss some of the important historical data sets available.


PA1947 - When you say the "trinity" is a deviation from the truth, are you actually referring to the debate on whether the three individuals are "one" individual versus whether the three individuals in the trinity are "three" individuals? Or are you referring to the teaching that a Lord God exists, who has a "son" who will become a redeemer, and that there is a "holy spirit" from God who inspires and teaches and testifies? I agree that some aspects of modern Christian "orthodoxy" represent a deviation from ancient "orthodoxy". Can you better define what it is specifically about the modern theory of the trinity that you disagree with?


Clear
fufuth

Last edited by Clear lens; 06-18-2011 at 08:20 PM..
 
Old 06-19-2011, 03:15 AM
 
Location: san francisco
2,057 posts, read 3,853,434 times
Reputation: 819
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clear lens View Post
I listened to the presentation and felt that Dr Moray’s summarizing conclusion that the “the trinity is incomprehensible” adds nothing to any debate. I did think that Bernards example of “the blind man and the elephant” was appropriate since both those who believe in a “three is really one individual” Godhead and those who believe in a “three is really three individuals” both have biblical bases upon which they interpret their views. One ends up describing the three as individuals and the other ends up describing the three as a single "essence". Multiple beliefs are based on the same bible, however different individuals interpret their pet scriptures differently.
One thing though, I think you are confusing the radio host with David Bernard. It wasn't Bernard who used the "elephant" analogy. I was assuming that youtube would lead to the rest of the conversation. I'll post the second clip since we didn't hear Bernard on the first clip.

Here it is...

YouTube - ‪Is UPCI a Cult? (David Bernard vs. Robert Morey 2/7)‬‏

You should follow the rest of the links if you have time. It's a very lively conversation and David Bernard is very delightful to listen to, I think. And also provides a compelling perspective. Very nice guy.

Oh and I would also say, this is a debate about whether or not UPC is a cult or not. So the topic of Oneness is not the only thing being argued here. So maybe it was a bad clip I posted, but you can find more on the related videos.

Last edited by migol84; 06-19-2011 at 03:28 AM..
 
Old 06-19-2011, 05:06 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 6,974,162 times
Reputation: 1615
Whether a person believes in Oneness or the Trinity has no effect on them. It's one of those doctrines that people fight over as if the bible said, "Those who believe in the trinity will be saved, and those who do not believe in the trinity will be damned". In other words - I don't care whether a person believes in the trinity or Oneness. I happen to believe that God is split into billions of fragments (called human beings) -- we are made in his image, are we not? He is in us and we are in him. We are God's offspring. And God is a spirit. Therefore, we are God's spiritual children.


YouTube - ‪Praise to the Lord, the Almighty - Fernando Ortega‬‏
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top