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Old 06-24-2011, 01:42 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,023 posts, read 9,974,698 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
The main purpose of the epistle to the Hebrews, as I see it, was to show that the old way of understanding was imperfect and was corrected by Christ.

Hebrews 9:22 tells us that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins UNDER THE LAW. But verse 23 tells us that this idea was just an imperfect copy, a shadow, of the real spiritual truth ...

22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. 23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these [blood] rites,

BUT the heavenly things themselves with BETTER SACRIFICES THAN THESE.

In Hebrews 10:5-6 this is reiterated...

Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said,

'Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me,
in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure.'

And the "BETTER SACRIFICE" than the shedding of blood then was what?

The Christ continues in verse 7:

'Then I said "Behold, I have come to do your will, O God..." '

The will of God is what?

Well, Hebrews 13:16 says:

And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.

Jesus himself said in Mark 12:33

To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.

And Paul said in Eph. 5:22

and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

The will of God was and is LOVE. Jesus poured out his LIFE ("blood") in being filled with the nature of God and fulfilling the will of God: LOVE.

So, the shedding of physical blood wasn't necessary for the Divine to be satisfied, as I see it. It was, however, the sad and all too predictable result of our human nature's need for punishment and retribution and it's hostile reaction to unconditional and merciful LOVE.

Now that we know better, though, Hebrews 10 warns us not to outrage this Spirit of GRACE which Jesus revealed to us, because we will face judgment for demanding something (anything other than LOVE) which God does not.
Jesus came specifically to the Jews. The Gospel was not preached to Gentiles until after His ascension into heaven. Jesus WAS a Jew and still under the old covenant. The new covenant did not begin until His resurrection. Consequently, a blood sacrfice was still necessary.
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Old 06-24-2011, 01:45 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,023 posts, read 9,974,698 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Stop lying about my views being counter to the Word of God Jesus Christ. They are counter to your corrupt understanding and interpretations, period. The entire context of God's nature and motives that you use to interpret is corrupted by the ancient ignorance that attributed human psychological weaknesses to God as His motives. He has no such weaknesses or motives. Under the vengeful "God who requires savage blood sacrifice" to salve His wounded pride and pay for our arrogant disobedience over a fruit . . . Christ's unambiguous display of God's TRUE NATURE and love for us all was corrupted as the ultimate (and final) blood sacrifice to a vengeful God!! My sources are biblical correctly, knowledgeably and intelligently interpreted by properly dividing the scriptures. Christ and His teachings are the ONLY WORD OF GOD . . . but the OT scriptures are GOD-INSPIRED interpretations by ignorant and superstitious men.

How can you claim the Jesus Christ of the Bible, yet deny the Old Testament which contains prophesies that foretold Him?
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Old 06-24-2011, 01:52 PM
 
23,194 posts, read 11,421,093 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
How can you claim the Jesus Christ of the Bible, yet deny the Old Testament which contains prophesies that foretold Him?
I DON'T deny them . . . do you even know when you are lying. Telling us about Christ is the PURPOSE of the OT God-INSPIRED prophecies!!! Christ fulfilled those prophesies that is HOW we know He is Christ the Son of God. Properly dividng scripture means knowing what the purpose is and knowing WHO is the WORD of God. It is Jesus Christ and His teachings.
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Old 06-24-2011, 02:25 PM
 
Location: USA
5,761 posts, read 2,192,549 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
Jesus came specifically to the Jews. The Gospel was not preached to Gentiles until after His ascension into heaven. Jesus WAS a Jew and still under the old covenant. The new covenant did not begin until His resurrection. Consequently, a blood sacrfice was still necessary.
You are saying that Jesus was a blood sacrifice only for the Jews then, which would mean it applies to no one else, which is not what is being taught in many Christian churches. At any rate, I disagree with you that Jesus physically shedding blood was required by God in any context.

Perhaps you can explain a few things from your perspective then ...

The idea of the shedding of blood being a copy/shadow of a BETTER SACRIFICE in light of the fact that God did not/does not desire burnt sacrifices or sin offerings means what to you?

That Christ spoke, then, of having come to do the real will of God, rather than just a copy/shadow of it (sacrifices and sin offerings) means what?

That Jesus spoke of the real will of the God being LOVE means what?

How do you see these things coming together?
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Old 06-24-2011, 03:23 PM
 
Location: Indianapolis
4,325 posts, read 3,393,658 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
Jesus came specifically to the Jews. The Gospel was not preached to Gentiles until after His ascension into heaven. Jesus WAS a Jew and still under the old covenant. The new covenant did not begin until His resurrection. Consequently, a blood sacrfice was still necessary.
Actually, that isn't true. Jesus revealed NEW revelations from God and that is why He was killed. It's like your beliefs clash with mine. We don't agree just as the pharasess' beliefs clashed with what Jesus taught. If He were alive today, you can bet you wouldn't believe Him or anything He taught because it would not be the same as what you have been taught. Jesus' teachings differed than that which was taught in His time.
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Old 06-25-2011, 09:06 AM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 1,572,430 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perry335654 View Post
I ask this question because this was an extremely painful way for God's Son Jesus to die by way of the cross. He could have have sent His Son to proclaim He was the Messiah with fancy garb and angel's at his beckoning call whenever perilous situations arose but He did not.


So why did there have to be the shedding of blood for our salvation?
RESPONSE:

What happened is that the religious leader, Jesus, was executed as an insurrectionist by the Romans since it was believed that he was the messiah who would restore the Jewish kingship and return the rule to Israel.

So to avoid embarrassment, his followers had to come up with a story to make his death meaningful.

Voila! The "atonement" story! (Hadn't God already forbidden human sacrifice?)
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Old 06-25-2011, 12:05 PM
 
Location: Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I DON'T deny them . . . do you even know when you are lying. Telling us about Christ is the PURPOSE of the OT God-INSPIRED prophecies!!! Christ fulfilled those prophesies that is HOW we know He is Christ the Son of God. Properly dividng scripture means knowing what the purpose is and knowing WHO is the WORD of God. It is Jesus Christ and His teachings.

So, only the prophesies of the OT are the revealed word of God?

What about the rest of it, that "ancient ignorance?" Which parts of the OT should we believe and which parts can we ignore? Says who?
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Old 06-25-2011, 12:17 PM
 
Location: Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
You are saying that Jesus was a blood sacrifice only for the Jews then, which would mean it applies to no one else, which is not what is being taught in many Christian churches.
I didn't say that. He came to reveal His message to the Jews. His disciples took the Gospel to the Gentiles, but His atoning death on the cross was for anyone who will accept it.

Quote:
At any rate, I disagree with you that Jesus physically shedding blood was required by God in any context.
Why? Blood sacrifices were required for the remission of sin beginning with Able, Noah and Abraham. It was expanded to all Jews in the law and God himself dictated it.

Perhaps you can explain a few things from your perspective then ...

Quote:
The idea of the shedding of blood being a copy/shadow of a BETTER SACRIFICE in light of the fact that God did not/does not desire burnt sacrifices or sin offerings means what to you?
The required animal sacrifices were a shadow of the better and promised last, perfect sacrifice of Jesus. After Him, no more are required by God because He was the PERFECT Lamb of God. Just as the lamb which was sacrificed had to be without blemish, so too was Jesus who lived His entire life under the law without violating one jot or tittle of it. Like the innocent animals who bore no fault for the sins of Adam and Eve, Christ bore no sins of His own either, yet paid the price for mankind, just as those animals in the Garden paid the price for Adam and Eve.

Quote:
That Christ spoke, then, of having come to do the real will of God, rather than just a copy/shadow of it (sacrifices and sin offerings) means what?
The real will of God for Christ was to bear the sins of mankind on His own shoulders as the final, acceptable sacrifice and to do it willingly.

Quote:
That Jesus spoke of the real will of the God being LOVE means what?
It means just what He said: Love God with all your heart, mind and strength and love your neighbor (that's everyone) as you love yourself. When you do that, (which CANNOT BE DONE without the presence of the Holy Spirit) you free yourself from the bondage of the law because those two greatest commandments FULFILL the law. Remember that Jesus said He came not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it? That's what He meant. And that's what Paul meant in Galatian's 5 when he talked about the liberty of Christ.
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Old 06-25-2011, 12:21 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,023 posts, read 9,974,698 times
Reputation: 7405
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend1111 View Post
Actually, that isn't true. Jesus revealed NEW revelations from God and that is why He was killed. It's like your beliefs clash with mine. We don't agree just as the pharasess' beliefs clashed with what Jesus taught. If He were alive today, you can bet you wouldn't believe Him or anything He taught because it would not be the same as what you have been taught. Jesus' teachings differed than that which was taught in His time.
How do they differ? The Old Testament is full of blood sacrifices for the atonement of sin and numerous prophesies about the coming perfect and final sacrifice of the Messiah.

All of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelations, teaches the same message of redemption and imputed righteousness by the offering of innocent blood. Jesus never refuted that. Rather, He fulfilled every prophesy about the coming Messiah, which not only did not change God's message to mankind, it proved it!
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Old 06-25-2011, 12:27 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,023 posts, read 9,974,698 times
Reputation: 7405
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Stop lying about my views being counter to the Word of God Jesus Christ. They are counter to your corrupt understanding and interpretations, period. The entire context of God's nature and motives that you use to interpret is corrupted by the ancient ignorance that attributed human psychological weaknesses to God as His motives. He has no such weaknesses or motives. Under the vengeful "God who requires savage blood sacrifice" to salve His wounded pride and pay for our arrogant disobedience over a fruit . . . Christ's unambiguous display of God's TRUE NATURE and love for us all was corrupted as the ultimate (and final) blood sacrifice to a vengeful God!! My sources are biblical correctly, knowledgeably and intelligently interpreted by properly dividing the scriptures. Christ and His teachings are the ONLY WORD OF GOD . . . but the OT scriptures are GOD-INSPIRED interpretations by ignorant and superstitious men.

So, you're convinced that the God of the Old Testment isn't really God at all, but ignorant men trying to humanize a God they don't understand? Is it not equally possible that the OT is God explaining His true nature to we humans in terms we'll understand?

If the God of righteous judgment doesn't exist, what happens to judgment day? The scriptures say, "And it is appointed unto man once to die, but after this, the judgment." (Heb 9:27) We are told that we all must give account of ourselves to God, but if the God of judgment isn't real, to whom will we give such an account?
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