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Old 06-25-2011, 04:40 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,023 posts, read 9,965,942 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Children ARE taught to hit.... They see and learn from what OTHERS do...

My children never saw me hit anyone, or their Mama either, but they hit at the first opportunity. If they "learned" it, they learned it from someone else I'm not aware of.

In any case, then, how are they taught to lie? When a child tells his first lie ("No, I didn't do that.") they don't even understand what a lie is. They know enough to understand that the truth will get them into trouble, but they don't yet recognize the concept of lying. They generally don't get that until they are 4 or 5, but they begin lying long before that.

I've heard this nonsense about love being our basic nature and about how we just have to raise our consciousness to overcome bad learning before. It was back in the hippie days and that was a foundational concept of the communal living movement. Free from all worldly distractions and bad vibes, mankind could live in peace, harmony and love. How did that work out?
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Old 06-25-2011, 06:21 PM
 
23,193 posts, read 11,405,957 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
How does learning how to love perfectly atone for past sins?
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
Children don't have to be taught to hit or to lie. They have to be taught NOT to.
How is that a result of our natural, in-born, loving nature?
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Children ARE taught to hit.... They see and learn from what OTHERS do...
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
I like to call it survival of the fittest
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
My children never saw me hit anyone, or their Mama either, but they hit at the first opportunity. If they "learned" it, they learned it from someone else I'm not aware of.

In any case, then, how are they taught to lie? When a child tells his first lie ("No, I didn't do that.") they don't even understand what a lie is. They know enough to understand that the truth will get them into trouble, but they don't yet recognize the concept of lying. They generally don't get that until they are 4 or 5, but they begin lying long before that.

I've heard this nonsense about love being our basic nature and about how we just have to raise our consciousness to overcome bad learning before. It was back in the hippie days and that was a foundational concept of the communal living movement. Free from all worldly distractions and bad vibes, mankind could live in peace, harmony and love. How did that work out?
This is off topic . . . but there does seem to be a need for education about early childhood development. The bottom line however . . . is we are born a totally self-centered organism and it is absolutely essential to our survival. It has long been known that if an infant had the capabilities of an adult it would be one of the more selfish and dangerous animals on the planet. We have to learn to discriminate between when and which drives we should respond to and when we should not. Our animal nature desires only to satisfy us and promote our survival and enjoyment, period. It has no capacity to discriminate among behaviors and doesn't. It seeks pleasure and avoids pain, period. We have to learn to discriminate among our drives and urges.
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Old 06-25-2011, 06:30 PM
 
Location: Indianapolis
4,325 posts, read 3,390,937 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
Children don't have to be taught to hit or to lie. They have to be taught NOT to.

How is that a result of our natural, in-born, loving nature?
Yeah they do. They get it from parents, friends or even observing it on tv and on the street. My son was never taught to lie or hit. He still doesn't do either one.

Teaching the fundamentals is very important to each person bringing the next generation into more upliftment. Even if it's prevailant in the world, what we teach our children now is wht they will be living in their own future. If we teach them how to love unselfishly, They would be able to live in a world of New Birth, or born again, humans. We are each other and each of us is Love. I've taught my own child about Love from the very beginning, even the love of enemies. He understands how it works and applies it to his own life. His world will be far greater than mine and I see it already in his actions towards the ones that don't live a very good life. He loves them and I can see that. We can all be born again in this life but it takes that first step towards love of self, God and each other.
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Old 06-25-2011, 06:59 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,824,996 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
My children never saw me hit anyone, or their Mama either, but they hit at the first opportunity. If they "learned" it, they learned it from someone else I'm not aware of.

In any case, then, how are they taught to lie? When a child tells his first lie ("No, I didn't do that.") they don't even understand what a lie is. They know enough to understand that the truth will get them into trouble, but they don't yet recognize the concept of lying. They generally don't get that until they are 4 or 5, but they begin lying long before that.

I've heard this nonsense about love being our basic nature and about how we just have to raise our consciousness to overcome bad learning before. It was back in the hippie days and that was a foundational concept of the communal living movement. Free from all worldly distractions and bad vibes, mankind could live in peace, harmony and love. How did that work out?
children don't understand the context of things. Perhaps your wife socked you in the shoulder in fun and the child imitated it. Perhaps it was on TV. Maybe you hit the child on accident and he didn't understand the sorry. Babies share first. Then they learn some stuff is taken away so they ate hesitant to share. They don't understand the context of actions in order to determine hitting as hurtful and hitting in fun. They are simply imitating others.

In some tribes a 2 year old is able to use a knife... Children are imitators.
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Old 06-25-2011, 08:26 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,023 posts, read 9,965,942 times
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To all of you:

I think I've said this before, but it bears repeating.

The Bible says we are all born into sin and rebellion. Our hearts are reservoirs of evil. Our basic nature is to do wrong, not good. We are condemned from the outset, destined for eternal separation from God, unless we repent of our evil nature and turn to Christ for His forgiveness, for which God will deem us righteous enough to enter His presence. Salvation means being saved and it's ourselves we need to be saved from.

Jer 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

The best that we could possibly do is like filthy rags in the sight of God.

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

We can never save ourselves because we're incapable of it.

But, most people, especially in this country, have a hard time believing that because they've never met evil face to face, never been in situations where their own evil nature comes to the fore. We live here in a cocoon of safety and plenty, of wealth and ease. We can live our entire lives secure in the knowledge that tomorrow won't be much different from today, that our basic human goodness will survive, will meet any challenge. Never tested, never confronted by the awful, dreadful things human beings can do to each other, we continue feeling justified in believing we're good, and so are most other people. As a consequence of that, we have a difficult time accepting that we need to be "saved" from anything. All we really need to do is try a little harder, make a few tweaks to an already nearly perfect soul, and we're there.

But, the reality is far different from that and only a few of us are unlucky enough, or blessed enough, to have seen it. People who lived through the Balkans War of the 1990's, or the Holocaust or the partition of India or Afghanistan and Pakistan today have few doubts about the evil lurking in men's hearts. They live it, they see it, they experience it every day. The memories of evil crowd their dreams. I've seen it too. I've felt it in my own heart and it keeps me awake at night.

Most of us have not. When we do see evil people in this country, which we do every day, we can casually dismiss it as, "Oh, that's just him." Remember New Orleans after Katrina? Remember what those people did when civilization collapsed in a day? Remember how we said, "They're not worth saving. I would NEVER do that!"

The truth is that, yes, you would. We are no different from them, no different from those "good" people who justified their jobs in the Nazi death camps, no different from the soldiers of Pol Pot or Idi Amin. We are capable of the most heinous evil, the most dreadful things you can imagine, but we don't want to believe that because we have the luxury of thinking we're "better" than those others who revealed their evil nature in those circumstances. That's not in me! Evil belongs to someone else!

In a way, I'm thankful that y'all have never been in places and situations like that, places where you're allowed, and even encouraged, to give free rein to your basic selves. That's a gift from God which you should not take lightly because what now is can change overnight and drop you into places where there are no restrictions, no laws, no courts, nothing to keep you "good."

But, it's also sad because you may never truly understand just how desperately you need the salvation offered by Jesus Christ. Being basically "good," you may have a hard time accepting that God doesn't see you as you see yourself; He sees what's in your evil heart, that evil heart you've never plumbed, never confronted, which you can deny exists because you've never met your evil self. That's a tragedy if it leads to your standing before the Living God in all your evil nakedness.

How I wish I could tell you of the things I've seen and done which proves, beyond a doubt, that we are NOT good people at our core, that each of us are bottomless, black pits of desperate evil! Maybe then you'd see, maybe then you'd understand that you and I and everyone else are just alike in that regard, it needs only the right circumstances to bring it out!
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Old 06-25-2011, 08:45 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,966 posts, read 3,027,656 times
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As a man thinks in his heart - so is he. - Proverbs 23:7
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Old 06-25-2011, 09:09 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,824,996 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
As a man thinks in his heart - so is he. - Proverbs 23:7
Exactly.
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Old 06-25-2011, 09:16 PM
 
23,193 posts, read 11,405,957 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
As a man thinks in his heart - so is he. - Proverbs 23:7
More true than we know, Heartsong . . . we are creating who we are daily by our thoughts and feelings.
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Old 06-25-2011, 09:19 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,023 posts, read 9,965,942 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
More true than we know, Heartsong . . . we are creating who we are daily by our thoughts and feelings.
Only so long as you are not challenged by events to think, and do, other than you're doing now.
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Old 06-25-2011, 09:28 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,023 posts, read 9,965,942 times
Reputation: 7405
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend1111 View Post
Yeah they do. They get it from parents, friends or even observing it on tv and on the street. My son was never taught to lie or hit. He still doesn't do either one.

Teaching the fundamentals is very important to each person bringing the next generation into more upliftment. Even if it's prevailant in the world, what we teach our children now is wht they will be living in their own future. If we teach them how to love unselfishly, They would be able to live in a world of New Birth, or born again, humans. We are each other and each of us is Love. I've taught my own child about Love from the very beginning, even the love of enemies. He understands how it works and applies it to his own life. His world will be far greater than mine and I see it already in his actions towards the ones that don't live a very good life. He loves them and I can see that. We can all be born again in this life but it takes that first step towards love of self, God and each other.
Who taught them before TV? Who taught evil thoughts to anyone?

Take adultery, for example. Who among us was taught that cheating on your spouse was alright, that it was acceptable? I dare say none of us. Yet, it happens every day. Why?

Who among us who are married have not thought of it in a moment of weakness or anger? Not many, yet we were not taught to think such things. In fact, most of us were taught otherwise, yet we still harbor such thoughts in our hearts, don't we? It matters not whether you've actually done it as all sin begins in the heart and, if we are honest, we've committed that sin in spite of everything we were taught about right and wrong.

Why is that? Where does that impulse come from? Where in the heart of a good person do such things lie? Yes, the physical attraction to another is mostly biological, but the thought of cheating on a spouse is a value judgment, a moral judgment, more than just hormones at work. Where does it come from, not only for us, but for the thousands of generations before us? Within the heart of a good person, it shouldn't be found at all, should it?

But, it's there.
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