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There is four types of love which are , agape, phileo, storge and eros...... `Agape` is the Love of God which has selfless compassion, obedience love that is universal as to love all for the purpose of the Lord. This love agape is easier in Heaven were there is no sin, but people can live their lives believing Gods love through the Fortitude of His protection....... Like the scripture `God so agape loved the World `..or Jesus so agape love that he gave his life ``... which is honorable love...some Old Testament use compassion love was required of God......... Then there is `Phileo love` who has a interest in someone as a strong friend or like with emotional interest.... Then there is `storge love` which is like Phileo love but is a brotherly love or a family love , and even a spouse become a family member affection through a strong marriage were honor can strengthen bonds .....Then there is `Eros love which is the erotic sexual love which is based on Sentiment love interest , which can be broken off more easiers , like the old flame has gone out and it will never be the same again which ends for ever..... Unusually prerequisites for this love to take place and if you remove these pre-requisites then the love will be gone which is selfish in nature..... See there are different kinds of love some are of the Character of God and some are the Character of Man ......
Thanks for your descriptions of Love. This is what I know... there are two Loves. The one which you refer to as "agape" is God's Divine Love. This is the very essence of God and one we each can possess if we pray for it. The other Love is called natural love and it's the Love God gives to us when we are born. It's the love we have for our family, friends, etc. The highest natural love is the mother's love for her children.
Well, I read your story and must admit that it is full of some beautiful moments, however I must disagree with your initial premise, that we don't have free will. You see your story seems to be written strictly from the perspective of how your love for your wife affected and changed you, but it does not mention anything about what freedom your wife had to either accept or reject your love. Make no mistake, anyone who opens their heart to the love of God will have their life transformed in such wonderful ways that words just can't explain, however, people do in fact shut their heart to God's love. people seem to have this notion that free will means having ultimate control over every little aspect about ones life, but it is simply saying that we all have the freedom to accept or reject God's love. Look at the story of Cain & Able, one accepted God's love and allowed it to shape his life and attitude, but the other one rejected God's love, and so it had the opposite effect on his heart and attitude. Love can be rejected, and that is one of the most tragic things to ever see happen. For every person, that does not make it into the Kingdom of Heaven, it will not be because God didn't love them, it will be because they chose to reject God's persistent, ever wooing love, through out their lives. The more a person hardens their heart against a love as supreme as God's, the more it shapes their heart and character into one where all things pertaining to God are misery and torture. It is why in the end God will allow those, that have rejected Him, to be annihilated and be as though they never were. For a person that has so set their heart against God, being forced to spend an eternity with Him would be misery. Even in their destruction God is loving and merciful.
I guess what I am getting at is that we are free to accept or reject God's love just as your wife is free to accept or reject your love. You may not be able to control the effect that the love you accept has on you, but you can certainly control whether or not you open your heart to it. If you couldn't then love would not really be love at all. Try to imagine how you would feel if you found out one day that your wife had a chip implanted in her brain, that forced her to love you. Would you truly feel that SHE loved you?
God's love is certainly great enough to save every person who has ever lived, but He will not force salvation on anyone. Those that are lost won't be lost because God wasn't able to save them, it will be because they chose not to be saved. The saved are simply those individuals who said to God "thy will be done" where the lost will be those individuals to whom God says "thy will be done". If we do not have a choice in the matter, why is scripture so full of texts advising us to make the right choice? Why does Christ say in Rev 3:20 "behold, I stand at the door and knock. IF anyone hears my voice AND opens the door, I will come in..."? If we had no choice in the matter, and Christ's love does conquer all, then why would it not say "when everyone hears my voice they WILL open the door..."? Please don't misunderstand me, Christ's love is infinitely ABLE to save all, but that does not mean that all will be saved. God choose to give us the freedom of choice when He created us, and because of that choice, he understood that it bore the possibility that His will would not always be done. That is the infinite love of God. That He choose to create us anyway and gave us freedom of choice, knowing that in order for us to truly have this freedom, He would have to be willing to allow us to make a choice in opposition to His will. Calvary is the proof of the sacrifice God made in giving mankind the freedom of choice.
Hey HalfNelson how ya doing?
In my original thoughts I was getting ready to state why I don't think we have a "free" will, when the above thought entered my mind and seemed so important to me. As for free will I say yes we have a will and yes we must choose God to be saved. But I contend that we all will choose God because after " God's judgements are in the earth the world will learn righteousness. " Isaiah 26:9
Yes we have a will and we think it is free because it seems to us to be our choice and it is, but when you meditate on it you will find that every choice you make was a caused choice. It was caused by circumstance, and the events in your life that made you who you are today. Who contro;ls his creation and is in control of those events and circumstance?-God.
Look at Saul, his will was to go to Damascus and persecute Christians. God struck him down and blinded him and caused Saul to change his will till it became the same as God's will, and Saul (later Paul) even says that he was the greatest sinner of all. So if God can change the will of the greatest sinner in a matter of moments don't you think he can change everyone?
Yes we have a will but it is not stronger than God's will. God is not willing that any be lost so none will be lost or God's will will have been overridden by man's will and that means we are stronger than God. No way.
And getting back to why I got distracted from this side of it is the fact that nothing is more powerful that love and God is love. I have had people tell me that his justice is just as powerful as his love do those that reject him must suffer, wrong, in the end no one will reject him. His love will enter them and they too will change. God works in increments very few are change like Saul was with a bolt from heaven, but make no mistake we all will be changed.
Love is stronger than Hate
Love is stronger than rejection
Love is stronger than Justice
Love is stronger than any other thing you can think about because God is Love and nothing even comes close to the power of God, so nothing comes close to the power of Love. Gods love will overcome everyone of our carnal thoughts and desires and in the end we will be like our Father and his will will be our will.
In my original thoughts I was getting ready to state why I don't think we have a "free" will, when the above thought entered my mind and seemed so important to me. As for free will I say yes we have a will and yes we must choose God to be saved. But I contend that we all will choose God because after " God's judgements are in the earth the world will learn righteousness. " Isaiah 26:9
Yes we have a will and we think it is free because it seems to us to be our choice and it is, but when you meditate on it you will find that every choice you make was a caused choice. It was caused by circumstance, and the events in your life that made you who you are today. Who contro;ls his creation and is in control of those events and circumstance?-God.
Look at Saul, his will was to go to Damascus and persecute Christians. God struck him down and blinded him and caused Saul to change his will till it became the same as God's will, and Saul (later Paul) even says that he was the greatest sinner of all. So if God can change the will of the greatest sinner in a matter of moments don't you think he can change everyone?
Yes we have a will but it is not stronger than God's will. God is not willing that any be lost so none will be lost or God's will will have been overridden by man's will and that means we are stronger than God. No way.
And getting back to why I got distracted from this side of it is the fact that nothing is more powerful that love and God is love. I have had people tell me that his justice is just as powerful as his love do those that reject him must suffer, wrong, in the end no one will reject him. His love will enter them and they too will change. God works in increments very few are change like Saul was with a bolt from heaven, but make no mistake we all will be changed.
Love is stronger than Hate
Love is stronger than rejection
Love is stronger than Justice
Love is stronger than any other thing you can think about because God is Love and nothing even comes close to the power of God, so nothing comes close to the power of Love. Gods love will overcome everyone of our carnal thoughts and desires and in the end we will be like our Father and his will will be our will.
I am so sorry that you are so stuck on an aspect of love and failing to see the totality of the beauty and power of love. True love is selfless, and that is where it's true power lies. God is Love and Love is selfless. You are stuck on the brute force strength of love without wanting to acknowledge it's selflessness that is so evident in the cross of Calvary. God's true benevolence is manifest in the fact that He has made the choice to give us the free will, understanding that it means there will be times when His will is not done. Have you ever stop to consider why Christ instructs us to pray "thy will be done on earth, as it is in Heaven"? If God's will was always done (since His will is always stronger than ours and will therefore always overpower ours{just paraphrasing your words}), why would there be the need for us to ask that His will be done? Maybe Christ is showing us clearly that we have free will. It seems clear that Christ is letting us know that God's will is not always done on earth, as it is Heaven.
Something else you seem to fail to distinguish between is cause versus influence. Pulling the trigger on a gun will cause the hammer to drop, striking the firing pin which in turn strikes the primer, casuing the gunpowder in the cartridge to ignite, which forces the bullet out of the barrel of the gun. Pulling the trigger was what caused the bullet to exit the gun. Influence would be the circumstances that lead to MY decision to pull the trigger, but the decision to pull the trigger is still mine. God can and does cause circumstances that influence, however, it is still completely up to the individual what decision they make. When Saul was on the road to Damascus, He had an encounter with Christ and compelled to make a choice, however the choice was still His to make. God forced the experience, which certainly influenced Saul's choice, however God did not make the choice for Saul. Look at Judas, he experienced Christ as well but he made the choice to betray Christ instead of accept Him into his heart.
You keep making statements like "our will is not stronger than God's will and it is God's will that all should be saved" and you fail to realize how poor a picture of God you start painting. You make him out to be a rapist of sorts. Once again you seem entirely stuck on God's physically ability with a complete lack of understanding a God who would willingly step aside and let you have your way simply because He chose that you would have the freedom to do so. When our will wins out over God's will, it isn't because God is not able or strong enough to force Himself on us, it is because He has chosen to allow us our freedom. That is love. Love is not selfish, it is self sacrificing. Just look at Calvary. Christ chose to die on the cross knowing that there would be many who would still reject Him and be lost, but knowing that if He didn't they wouldn't even have the choice. That my friend is self sacrificing love.
I am so sorry that you are so stuck on an aspect of love and failing to see the totality of the beauty and power of love. True love is selfless, and that is where it's true power lies. God is Love and Love is selfless. You are stuck on the brute force strength of love without wanting to acknowledge it's selflessness that is so evident in the cross of Calvary. God's true benevolence is manifest in the fact that He has made the choice to give us the free will, understanding that it means there will be times when His will is not done. Have you ever stop to consider why Christ instructs us to pray "thy will be done on earth, as it is in Heaven"? If God's will was always done (since His will is always stronger than ours and will therefore always overpower ours{just paraphrasing your words}), why would there be the need for us to ask that His will be done? Maybe Christ is showing us clearly that we have free will. It seems clear that Christ is letting us know that God's will is not always done on earth, as it is Heaven.
Something else you seem to fail to distinguish between is cause versus influence. Pulling the trigger on a gun will cause the hammer to drop, striking the firing pin which in turn strikes the primer, casuing the gunpowder in the cartridge to ignite, which forces the bullet out of the barrel of the gun. Pulling the trigger was what caused the bullet to exit the gun. Influence would be the circumstances that lead to MY decision to pull the trigger, but the decision to pull the trigger is still mine. God can and does cause circumstances that influence, however, it is still completely up to the individual what decision they make. When Saul was on the road to Damascus, He had an encounter with Christ and compelled to make a choice, however the choice was still His to make. God forced the experience, which certainly influenced Saul's choice, however God did not make the choice for Saul. Look at Judas, he experienced Christ as well but he made the choice to betray Christ instead of accept Him into his heart.
You keep making statements like "our will is not stronger than God's will and it is God's will that all should be saved" and you fail to realize how poor a picture of God you start painting. You make him out to be a rapist of sorts. Once again you seem entirely stuck on God's physically ability with a complete lack of understanding a God who would willingly step aside and let you have your way simply because He chose that you would have the freedom to do so. When our will wins out over God's will, it isn't because God is not able or strong enough to force Himself on us, it is because He has chosen to allow us our freedom. That is love. Love is not selfish, it is self sacrificing. Just look at Calvary. Christ chose to die on the cross knowing that there would be many who would still reject Him and be lost, but knowing that if He didn't they wouldn't even have the choice. That my friend is self sacrificing love.
I agree with this post. We have free will by God's Express Will and He will not rescind it. The ONLY actions God ever wants from us are voluntary . . . those WE WANT to do for "love of God and each other." He influences us toward what He desires . . . but He would have no use whatsoever for any forced outcome. It would not reflect the actual state of development of our spirituality. Forcing compliance is the foolishness engaged in by so many self-righteous would-be dictators and "enforcers" of God's Will. It is completely counter to God's Will.
But you and sshulz are talking at cross purposes. You are focused on the interim and presuming a deadline at death. Sschulz is focused on the ultimate end result with no specified deadline. God will have ALL that He desires . . . all in His good time.
God will have ALL that He desires . . . all in His good time.
Once again, I think scripture makes it clear that there will be some that are eternally lost, which is counter to God's desire that they be eternally saved. This once again speaks to God's unfailing love. You see God is willing to suffer the loss of those who go against His desire and choose eternal death, so that those who choose eternal life may have it. It is God who makes the final sacrifice in the end. The lost will eventually be as though they never were. They won't be in any pain or misery. It is God who will eternally bear the sacrifice of not having ALL He desires from the standpoint of there will those that He desired to be in Heaven yet who rejected His offer of Heaven. God will get all He desires in the end from the standpoint of, He desires that all who experience eternal life with Him, do so because it was their choice. God wants evey person to choose Him, but He understands that ultimately there will be those who don't.
Once again, I think scripture makes it clear that there will be some that are eternally lost, which is counter to God's desire that they be eternally saved. This once again speaks to God's unfailing love. You see God is willing to suffer the loss of those who go against His desire and choose eternal death, so that those who choose eternal life may have it. It is God who makes the final sacrifice in the end. The lost will eventually be as though they never were. They won't be in any pain or misery. It is God who will eternally bear the sacrifice of not having ALL He desires from the standpoint of there will those that He desired to be in Heaven yet who rejected His offer of Heaven. God will get all He desires in the end from the standpoint of, He desires that all who experience eternal life with Him, do so because it was their choice. God wants evey person to choose Him, but He understands that ultimately there will be those who don't.
There is no reasoning with those who would be special in God's eyes. It is impossible for anyone to CHOOSE not to believe. Belief is NOT a choice. If you have to choose between alternatives . . . you don't truly believe any of them.
Once again, I think scripture makes it clear that there will be some that are eternally lost, which is counter to God's desire that they be eternally saved. This once again speaks to God's unfailing love. You see God is willing to suffer the loss of those who go against His desire and choose eternal death, so that those who choose eternal life may have it. It is God who makes the final sacrifice in the end. The lost will eventually be as though they never were. They won't be in any pain or misery. It is God who will eternally bear the sacrifice of not having ALL He desires from the standpoint of there will those that He desired to be in Heaven yet who rejected His offer of Heaven. God will get all He desires in the end from the standpoint of, He desires that all who experience eternal life with Him, do so because it was their choice. God wants evey person to choose Him, but He understands that ultimately there will be those who don't.
So according to you, God's "unfailing love" is so great that he prefers to allow most of humanity to eternally damn themselves other than to heal them and renew them in the spirit?
So you believe God prefers the freewill of humanity to his own sovereign will? And you teach that the word of God who is Christ will fail to accomplish Gods desire to save all people because God would rather most people be damned for ever so that a few people can live forever? How is that supposed to make sense?
Do you believe that everyone who is damned forever are damned because they deserve it? If so does that mean that you earned and so deserve your own salvation?
I see this thread is turning into a discussion of Free Will vs. No Free Will.
That topic became a "banned topic" at Tentmaker several years ago because of the horrible knock-down drag-out fights it induced in people.
There is definitely a tension between our will and God's will. I personally don't believe mankind's will is free until God sets a person free. Until that time, a person's will is BOUND over to disobedience. God is sovereign. But I won't fight with people over this issue. :-)
I agree with this post. We have free will by God's Express Will and He will not rescind it. The ONLY actions God ever wants from us are voluntary . . . those WE WANT to do for "love of God and each other." He influences us toward what He desires . . . but He would have no use whatsoever for any forced outcome. It would not reflect the actual state of development of our spirituality. Forcing compliance is the foolishness engaged in by so many self-righteous would-be dictators and "enforcers" of God's Will. It is completely counter to God's Will.
But you and sshulz are talking at cross purposes. You are focused on the interim and presuming a deadline at death. Sschulz is focused on the ultimate end result with no specified deadline. God will have ALL that He desires . . . all in His good time.
I agree with this view.
Love is powerful enough (love conquers ALL) to allow free will.
There is no where we can go that is TOO far into the darkness that His light will not shine and draw us back. That is part of the whole point...
We are being shown something. It is being revealed, uncovered, discovered, it is unfolding for us, all of us..
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