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Sure. But of course, you understand why I would ask a few questions pertaining to something that essentially stands all of orthodox Christianity for the past 2011 years on it's collective head.
I have no doubt that God desires to save all men and he has the ability to do so. I've read that in the Bible. Over and over and over again.
And you do not see a problem between orthodox Christian dogma and that???
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I think you just need to read the Bible. It'll be of benefit to you.
Iron is as well-versed in scripture as anyone. He doesn't just READ . . . he knowledgeably interprets it. His scholarship is not the issue.
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Hell isn't something Christians need to worry about anyway. It's someplace we need to help the lost worry about and avoid. Why you would feel the need to argue this point with fellow believers betrays something. If you are right, after all, than it doesn't make a difference. It's just a vain argument.
You are mistaken. Our understanding of the true nature of God affects the state of our love whether or not we recognize it. ANY fear corrupts love. Pure love casts out ALL fear (including the disingenuous "awe" nonsense).
Our savage species required fear to "tame" us. That is why fear is the BEGINNING of wisdom . . . not the end. God WILL have ALL to be saved. Are there negative consequences that attend our unloving thoughts and actions . . . of course . . . we will reap what we sow. But ET in a Hell is not it!
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
The word for perish is the same Greek word for lost.
Whoever believes in Jesus is not in a state of being lost.
Sooner or later everyone will believe in Jesus and will no longer be lost.
Finn. The scriptures tell us that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, this is the mission.
The scriptures are also clear that it is God who opens are our heart to believe. Here's one that you simply cannot deny(the Lord opened Lydia's heart torespond to Paul's message Acts 16:14),if you read it with an open heart it's actually saying the only way we can respond to the message(the good news)is by God opening our heart,you teach it was your choice,the scriptures teach it was God's. So it is clear the mission that God sent his son to accomplish is in his hands not ours.
These 2 points alone pull the rug from under your toe the party line belief.
Here's a trustworthy statement that deserves full acceptance.Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners-of whom i'm the worst 1 Tim 1:15.
I can't speak for Paul, but this Paul can testify that if he is able to save me the worst of sinners,he's willing and able to save all.
This is a red herring argument.
First you presuppose that Christ is attempting to accomplish something that is contrary to God's nature. You also presuppose that this is what God wants Christ to accomplish - something that God's law does not permit to happen.
The fact that God DESIRES all men to be saved is not the same thing as saying that God WILL save all men, including those who don't want salvation.
God will have ALL He desires.
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You are the one who doesn't represent God's word.
You are the one who does NOT properly divide the scriptures. Christ is the Word of God. You retain our primitive ancestors' ignorant savage understanding of God's nature that Christ came to unambiguously correct by His example and teachings.
Finn. The scriptures tell us that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, this is the mission.
The scriptures are also clear that it is God who opens are our heart to believe. Here's one that you simply cannot deny(the Lord opened Lydia's heart torespond to Paul's message Acts 16:14),if you read it with an open heart it's actually saying the only way we can respond to the message(the good news)is by God opening our heart,you teach it was your choice,the scriptures teach it was God's. So it is clear the mission that God sent his son to accomplish is in his hands not ours.
These 2 points alone pull the rug from under your toe the party line belief.
Here's a trustworthy statement that deserves full acceptance.Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners-of whom i'm the worst 1 Tim 1:15.
I can't speak for Paul, but this Paul can testify that if he is able to save me the worst of sinners,he's willing and able to save all.
pcamps
Saved by the grace of God and not by choice.
No comment about my post, only old selling points? That's ok Paulie. Enjoy your Sunday. The British Open final round is underway, if you didn't know.
God will have ALL He desires.You are the one who does NOT properly divide the scriptures. Christ is the Word of God. You retain our primitive ancestors' ignorant savage understanding of God's nature that Christ came to unambiguously correct by His example and teachings.
No, I think my actual problem is that I don't ignore or toss out the scriptures that I find unsuitable to my pet theory. That's my problem. But, it's nice to know that at last, after 2011 years, someone's finally come along to correct all the mistakes of Judeo-Christian orthodoxy.
Who exactly are "our primitive ancestor's" whose ignorance Christ came to correct with more teachings that have since been superceded or obsoleted by the new wisdom of the Universalists?
So Christ was wrong then? And the apostles? And for 2000 years, all of Christendom, except the Universalists, have been wrong?
No Christ was not wrong . . . those who corrupted His message of love and His Gospel were. They perpetuated the ancient fear, superstitions and ignorance of our ancestors to promote their own agenda of power and control. It is the supreme irony that such satanic corruption using our basest instincts and weaknesses has been considered the mainstream orthodoxy for over 2000 years without anyone questioning its blatant contradiction of Christ's UNAMBIGUOUS example and teaching of "love God and each other." THAT has been the triumph of the anti-Christ that everyone mistakenly thinks is still in our future.
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Originally Posted by Led Zeppelin
No, I think my actual problem is that I don't ignore or toss out the scriptures that I find unsuitable to my pet theory.
We do not ignore or throw out scripture either. We intelligently interpret it with the "mind of Christ."
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That's my problem. But, it's nice to know that at last, after 2011 years, someone's finally come along to correct all the mistakes of Judeo-Christian orthodoxy.
Who exactly are "our primitive ancestor's" whose ignorance Christ came to correct with more teachings that have since been superceded or obsoleted by the new wisdom of the Universalists? And it is a NEW gospel.
NO . . . it is the original Gospel of Christ. The mainstream orthodoxy failed to properly DIVIDE the OT scriptures under the veil of ignorance that prophesied about Christ THE Word of God and provided the validations of Him . . . from the NT recordings of His life, words and teachings about the Good News of God's TRUE NATURE and plan for us ALL. FYI . . . Christian Universalists are NOT whatever Universalists you have been indoctrinated to believe are heretics or unbelievers.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 07-17-2011 at 10:12 AM..
Sure. But of course, you understand why I would ask a few questions pertaining to something that essentially stands all of orthodox Christianity for the past 2011 years on it's collective head.
I have no doubt that God desires to save all men and he has the ability to do so. I've read that in the Bible. Over and over and over again.
I think you just need to read the Bible. It'll be of benefit to you. Hell isn't something Christians need to worry about anyway. It's someplace we need to help the lost worry about and avoid. Why you would feel the need to argue this point with fellow believers betrays something. If you are right, after all, than it doesn't make a difference. It's just a vain argument.
Thank you for for the encouragement, but i'm a preachers kid and i was forced to read the bible all my young life, and i choose to continue to do so even now. I have been reading the bible all my natural life, for over 30 years and will continue to do so ... But perhaps you should take your own advice? And perhaps you should dig a little deeper and begin to study the scriptures in the languages they were written in, namely the Hebrew and the Koine Greek ...
The word Hell for instance does not appear once in the new or old testament in the original manuscripts, and neither does the word everlasting or eternal or damnation.
Hell isn't something anyone needs to worry about, it is a pagan myth interpolated into the christian traditions and into the bible itself by wicked men who entered the church after Rome declared Christianity to be the religion of the state ...
For the first 300 years after Christ most Christians believed that all people would be saved in Christ, and Universal salvation was the prevailing doctrine during that time ...
The reason why i refute the false Doctrine of ET is in order to promote the true Gospel of the complete victory of Christ over sin and death in the lives of all people. Also, the fruits of the false doctrine of ET are diabolical, as the dark ages themselves prove. How many men women and children were tortured and burned alive at the hands of the black church in the name of Christ? How much suffering has this false teaching caused in the world?
The false doctrine of Eternal Torture and everlasting hell not only detrimentally effects the lives and minds of many people, it also smears the name of God and make him out to be either the most cruel and sadistic being in all existence, a tyrannical demon God worse then Baal-Peor or Moloch ever thought about being and for this reason alone many people reject Christ. Either that or else it makes him out to be an incompetent and literally nearly impotent deity, one who has castrated himself of his sovereignty in order to give carnal and blind humans control over their own destinies and the destine of the creation at large.
That is why the true Gospel of Universal Reconciliation must be commanded and taught, even as we are exhorted to do by the apostle Paul himself ...
"This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance. That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially(most of all) of those who believe. Command and teach these things."
I command and teach that God is the savior of all people, most of all those that believe, just like Paul exhorted believers to do ... While to the contrary, you teach another gospel along with all ET'ers and those that teach and believe in Annihilation. You all teach and believe that "God is NOT the savior of all people, but ONLY of those that believe".
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 07-17-2011 at 11:05 AM..
The relationship between God and mankind is made out to be to complicated by the imaginations of mankind, thus all the confusion.
It is all very simple once the clouds of confusion are swept away and the truth be revealed.
A similar metaphor for that is circumcision. The clouds representing the foreskin cut away and the head (Truth) revealed.
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Yet another similarity is the death of the old man and the rebirth of the new man; where the old (clouds, foreskin) is done away with:
Luk 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
By necessity, there must needs to be a renewal:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Christ is the Head revealed after the clouds of confusion are swept away by His revelation of who God is and His relationship with us.
OK, having said all that, perhaps some may find it clear enough regardless of beliefs, to find it interesting that no other non-Christian belief has a similar hope for mankind, given the knowledge of the true nature of the Creator.
God creator: created mankind and all there is, is a revelation no other belief can reveal. Not only reveal it, but perform it is well.
Mankind's curse: a result of being made in the image of the Creator.
Individuality, being a separate entity, having the ability to make choices and plainly state: a god.
The Creators design of us entailed separation which is another word for death. Thus, death came upon all mankind as a curse.
God the Savior: The creator is also the Savior of His own creation: enter in all beliefs as one.... in one unique sacrifice instead of the whole creation....thus the salvation of all mankind is accomplished.
That is the very basic truth, accept it or not, believe it or not, yet it's application remains regardless of the clouds of confusion mankind has conjured up.
Because any of us had no choice to when, (Day in human history) where,(what country, nation or place) to whom, (Race) and religious beliefs, we were to be born into, we are subject to them.
But because we have the ability to choose, we may decide to change some of those things we were subjected to.
We are brothers and Sisters on one common ground, and that is that the Creator both created and determined to save us regardless of our own efforts.
Divisions is because of mankind's ignorance, unity, brotherly love is because of knowledge of the truth.
P.S. For those who like numbers: in the verses quoted above...note the numbers?
Notice Rom 6:6? Notice how the verse reads to make the numbers real?
The first 6 being destroyed. ( being the number of a man)
The second 6 emerging to replace it.
And in the following verse quoted 2Co 5:17, the 5 being grace extended to 7+1 = 8 to (Jesus), the new man, third (6) is you and I, the beneficiaries of grace extended as our salvation.
Luk 5:37 5 is grace extended through the perfect law of God. (3 + 7 = 10, the Commandments)
Tell me, of any other religious belief out there that will not require good behavior in order to receive free grace?
All of them require some kind of personal sacrifice which, is the catalyst for the beginnings of confusion.
There are no coincidences in life: we live through them and by them are influenced.
Blessings, AJ
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The word for perish is the same word for lost
