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Old 08-10-2007, 07:41 AM
 
Location: Plano, Texas
8,640 posts, read 14,444,728 times
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Default Just some thoughts...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooseketeer View Post
I think it's a spark of curiosity and bewilderment actually ! I find it fascinating why so many human beings seem to "need" religion when others seem quite content and reconciled with the fact that there is no god.

As June7th said, I come here to try and understand why god is such an important of people's life and I am still baffled.

I am so glad it brings comfort and succour to those who seek it and truly grateful that a belief system can do so much to enhance some people's lives. It just isn't for me.
I have stared into the spiritual vortex many times , in my younger days and never, not once ever even remotely felt anything.


I could easily have pretended to myself and others that I had "seen the light" but it would have been a complete lie and pure self-deception . Yet all you religious friends are so sincere and so full of joy about your love of god. It is a wonder to me.

I see my life as something which should be based on a strong moral frame-work and try to lead it as well as I possibly can but god is not even remotely part of the equation for me.

In many ways ( and please I really do not want to offend anyone , this is just an observation) , I believe most people don't really have faith, I think they have "doubt". Doubt that there is a god and therefore that it is prudent to be religious just in case. I have also observed so many religious people who go to church as a social network and forget god the rest of the week and when I look at people's lifestyles I see very little of a Christian (or other faiths) application of morals and principles.


I know as humans we are all very much flawed but still it puzzles me that anyone with true faith would do some of the things they do.

And as I don't know any of you personally I assume you are not these people. But when I see over 90 % of people who consider themselves Christians in the US for example and see the percentage of porn, drug and alcohol abuse , child molesting, violence, racism, xenophobia etc.. I am puzzled how these numbers add up. Yes we are weak and flawed but that flawed when it is such a long way away from Christ's teachings seems a bit strange.


It seems to me looking from the outside in that being a Christian is a cultural component of our societies and that we are very reluctant to let go even though a lot of people appear less than sincere in their daily lives. I would have thought Christ would not expect people to be saints but would expect them to try their hardest to live better lives. And this just does not add up with our society pretty much anywhere in the Christian world ( I feel the same is true of other religions by the way I am not singling out Christians)

I guess to me religion is a way for humans to belong, and a way to bind ourselves to others so we feel less alone .

I hope I have not offended anyone as it really isn't my intention.
I would just say regarding that, Moose, that yes, even true Christians are flawed. Lord knows I am. However, when we look at society as a whole, I think we do have to recognize (and obviously, I'm speaking about the U.S. since that is my frame of reference) that many, many of the people here who call themselves "Christians" are what might be termed "cultural Christians" or Christians in name only. In other words, they identify themself as a Christian because maybe they do believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and they aren't Jewish or Muslim or atheist. So they call themselves a Christian kinda by default. (They're not "something else" so they say they're Christian.) But in actuality, they go about their daily lives and never give God or Jesus a thought.

I would also say that personally I have never felt any particular "need" for religion in my life. As I shared earlier, I just have always been interested in God and have a drawing to spiritual things, but need...no, not really. As I've gotten older, I have found the church to be a place, however, where my husband and I could meet people and form very deep relationships with others. (However, if that was all I received from church, I wouldn't go, let me hasten to add. It has to be more than that.)
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Old 08-10-2007, 10:19 AM
 
Location: Northern California
1,587 posts, read 2,683,417 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by famenity View Post
I think it fair to say Throx has a point, because Jesus came after Moses does not in itself lend any credibility after all Mohammad came later so this argument about chronology has little weight.

From my point of view each religion has it's place but the similarities are greater than the differences and we could have a happier more sustainable world if we exploited the similarities.
True, he has a point...you could say since the Jews are worshipping the Father that they are worshipping the same God. But IMO if they are rejecting Jesus and the Holy Spirit then it's not the same God in total. Rejecting part is like rejecting the whole thing. I mean doesn't the bible speak of the only unpardonable sin being the rejection of the Holy Spirit? I'm not trying to bash Jews at all...just sort out the differences in beliefs. To me while it appears to be the same in reality it's not.
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Old 08-10-2007, 11:46 AM
 
122 posts, read 237,669 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wzippler View Post
Allah had no son, my God did. Therefore Allah is not my God.
Sorry to put it so bluntly but you said that is what you wanted.
No need to be sorry, we are at an impasse, and your opinion is what I wanted to hear, but history disagrees with you. Historicly speaking, the Jewish Yaweh is your God. The Moslems worship him as well.

The Moslems actually respect Jesus as a great prophet or teacher. How much respect do you folks give to Muhammed?
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Old 08-10-2007, 11:55 AM
 
Location: ARK-KIN-SAW
3,434 posts, read 6,566,655 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Throx View Post
No need to be sorry, we are at an impasse, and your opinion is what I wanted to hear, but history disagrees with you. Historicly speaking, the Jewish Yaweh is your God. The Moslems worship him as well.

The Moslems actually respect Jesus as a great prophet or teacher. How much respect do you folks give to Muhammed?
True, Yaweh is our God, but Christians believe that Jesus is the Only way to God, We believe Jesus and God are one, along with the Holy Spirit, hence the trinity, well if Jesus and God are one, then Jesus IS God, and allah is not. Ill plead the 5th on the last question.
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Old 08-10-2007, 11:57 AM
 
Location: ARK-KIN-SAW
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The Holy Bible teaches that God cannot be tempted by evil and neither tempts anyone with evil; evil being understood as referring to immorality and sin. James 1:13 (c.f. Psalm 5:4-5; Habakkuk 1:13)

Yet, the Quran teaches that Allah is the author of evil:


Verily, the hypocrites seek to deceive Allah, but it is He Who deceives them. And when they stand up for As-Salat (the prayer), they stand with laziness and to be seen of men, and they do not remember Allah but little. S. 4:142 Hilali-Khan
And (the unbelievers) schemed and planned, and Allah schemed also, and the best of schemers is Allah. S. 3:54

Are they then secure from Allah's scheme (makra Allahi)? None deemeth himself secure from Allah's scheme (makra Allahi) save folk that perish. S. 7:99 Pickthall

Remember how the unbelievers schemed against thee, to keep thee in bonds, or to slay thee, or get thee out (of thy home). They scheme and plot, but the best of schemers is Allah. S. 8:30

And when We make people taste of mercy after an affliction touches them, lo! they devise schemes (makrun) against Our communication. Say: Allah is quicker to scheme (makran); surely Our apostles write down what you plan. S. 10:21

And those before them did indeed scheme (makara), but all scheming (al-makru) is Allah's; He knows what every soul earns, and the unbelievers shall come to know for whom is the (better) issue of the abode. S. 13:42

So they schemed a scheme: and We schemed a scheme, while they perceived not. S. 27:50

The term for scheme in Arabic is makara which denotes one who is a deceiver, one who is conniving, a schemer. It is always used in a negative sense. Allah is thus seen as the best of deceivers, the premiere schemer and conniving one.

This is not simply a Christian perspective but one thoroughly endorsed by Muslim theologians as well
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Old 08-10-2007, 12:25 PM
 
122 posts, read 237,669 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arguy1973 View Post
The Holy Bible teaches that God cannot be tempted by evil and neither tempts anyone with evil; evil being understood as referring to immorality and sin. James 1:13 (c.f. Psalm 5:4-5; Habakkuk 1:13)

Yet, the Quran teaches that Allah is the author of evil:


Verily, the hypocrites seek to deceive Allah, but it is He Who deceives them. And when they stand up for As-Salat (the prayer), they stand with laziness and to be seen of men, and they do not remember Allah but little. S. 4:142 Hilali-Khan
And (the unbelievers) schemed and planned, and Allah schemed also, and the best of schemers is Allah. S. 3:54

Are they then secure from Allah's scheme (makra Allahi)? None deemeth himself secure from Allah's scheme (makra Allahi) save folk that perish. S. 7:99 Pickthall

Remember how the unbelievers schemed against thee, to keep thee in bonds, or to slay thee, or get thee out (of thy home). They scheme and plot, but the best of schemers is Allah. S. 8:30

And when We make people taste of mercy after an affliction touches them, lo! they devise schemes (makrun) against Our communication. Say: Allah is quicker to scheme (makran); surely Our apostles write down what you plan. S. 10:21

And those before them did indeed scheme (makara), but all scheming (al-makru) is Allah's; He knows what every soul earns, and the unbelievers shall come to know for whom is the (better) issue of the abode. S. 13:42

So they schemed a scheme: and We schemed a scheme, while they perceived not. S. 27:50

The term for scheme in Arabic is makara which denotes one who is a deceiver, one who is conniving, a schemer. It is always used in a negative sense. Allah is thus seen as the best of deceivers, the premiere schemer and conniving one.

This is not simply a Christian perspective but one thoroughly endorsed by Muslim theologians as well


What a terrible thing to say about the beliefs of a Billion people.
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Old 08-10-2007, 02:36 PM
 
Location: South East UK
659 posts, read 932,429 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arguy1973 View Post
The Holy Bible teaches that God cannot be tempted by evil and neither tempts anyone with evil; evil being understood as referring to immorality and sin. James 1:13 (c.f. Psalm 5:4-5; Habakkuk 1:13)

Yet, the Quran teaches that Allah is the author of evil:


Verily, the hypocrites seek to deceive Allah, but it is He Who deceives them. And when they stand up for As-Salat (the prayer), they stand with laziness and to be seen of men, and they do not remember Allah but little. S. 4:142 Hilali-Khan
And (the unbelievers) schemed and planned, and Allah schemed also, and the best of schemers is Allah. S. 3:54

Are they then secure from Allah's scheme (makra Allahi)? None deemeth himself secure from Allah's scheme (makra Allahi) save folk that perish. S. 7:99 Pickthall

Remember how the unbelievers schemed against thee, to keep thee in bonds, or to slay thee, or get thee out (of thy home). They scheme and plot, but the best of schemers is Allah. S. 8:30

And when We make people taste of mercy after an affliction touches them, lo! they devise schemes (makrun) against Our communication. Say: Allah is quicker to scheme (makran); surely Our apostles write down what you plan. S. 10:21

And those before them did indeed scheme (makara), but all scheming (al-makru) is Allah's; He knows what every soul earns, and the unbelievers shall come to know for whom is the (better) issue of the abode. S. 13:42

So they schemed a scheme: and We schemed a scheme, while they perceived not. S. 27:50

The term for scheme in Arabic is makara which denotes one who is a deceiver, one who is conniving, a schemer. It is always used in a negative sense. Allah is thus seen as the best of deceivers, the premiere schemer and conniving one.

This is not simply a Christian perspective but one thoroughly endorsed by Muslim theologians as well

Whether or not Muslim scholars describe Allah as you say, and I know little of the Quran, it is clear to me you are taking the wrong interpretation of these words. Clearly the words indicate that Allah is the greatest in all things for he knows what you are thinking, this sort of explanation and understanding is within the Catholic church too and similarly if god creates all things ( if you are a believer) then he, de facto creates evil.
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Old 08-10-2007, 03:06 PM
 
Location: South East UK
659 posts, read 932,429 times
Reputation: 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Throx View Post
I have no idea what the point is, that you just made?
Sorry Throx for the delay,

This notion that sin is common to all men is one of the legs of Christianity for now each and every one of us needs forgiveness and baptism. Christ died for sinners, to save us.

I don't wish to push this but untill believers can resolve such questions their belief must appear incomplete.
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Old 08-10-2007, 03:09 PM
 
Location: ARK-KIN-SAW
3,434 posts, read 6,566,655 times
Reputation: 1530
Quote:
Originally Posted by Throx View Post
What a terrible thing to say about the beliefs of a Billion people.
how is the truth terrible?
WHAT ARE THE MAJOR POINTS OF SIMILARITY AND DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE BELIEFS AND PRACTICES OF MULSIMS AND CHRISTIANS (http://www.passionforgrace.org.uk/WorldRel1.html - broken link)
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Old 08-10-2007, 03:10 PM
 
Location: Northern California
1,587 posts, read 2,683,417 times
Reputation: 509
Quote:
Originally Posted by Throx View Post
No need to be sorry, we are at an impasse, and your opinion is what I wanted to hear, but history disagrees with you. Historicly speaking, the Jewish Yaweh is your God. The Moslems worship him as well.

The Moslems actually respect Jesus as a great prophet or teacher. How much respect do you folks give to Muhammed?
Throx,
From what I have gathered, you are not a Christian. How can you attempt to tell a Christian who their God is? If you asked a Jew or a Muslim if Jesus was God they would say "no". A prophet, yes but not God. If you asked a Jew or a Muslim if God has three parts, the triune God...they would say "no". The Christian God includes Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit. You cannot seperate them. All three religions would agree on this and yet you insist on your own opinion. Maybe more research is needed on your part?
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