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Old 07-21-2011, 11:33 PM
 
10,224 posts, read 10,599,922 times
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Does anybody mind if I vent a little?

I know I should be asking God this question, but as He's not taking calls right now I thought I'd run my frustration by you good folks.

Take a look at some typical exegesis on Matthew 25:46, which I have been studying like crazy these last weeks.

Quote:
Rob Bell in his recent book Love Wins refers to the use of the noun kolasis in Matthew 25:46. He argues that the cognate verb kolazo “is a term from horticulture. It refers to the pruning and trimming of the branches of a plant so that it can flourish”
Further

Quote:
So it would seem that Bell is correct in saying that the noun can mean pruning.
But now take a look at this

Quote:
However, the fact that the noun and verb can be used in horticultural contexts to describe various methods of pruning does not determine the meaning of the noun in Matthew 25:46.
Further

Quote:
Nothing in Jesus’ teaching about the final judgment in Mathew 25:31-46 as far as I can see makes any comparison with pruning.
Thus

Quote:
It may be as J. Schneider suggests that the maiming of slaves as a punishment is the connection between the action of cutting off and punishment.
Another "however"

Quote:
However, a few centuries later the sense that such punishment is temporary and corrective is no longer dominant.
Thus

Quote:
The nature of the punishment depends upon who is the subject, the reason for the action, and who is the recipient.
And on and on and on and on!

I mean is it really necessary for about twelve simple words to be so convoluted that literally a Congressional Library can be written (and has been written) on one verse and yet we still can't arrive at some kind of consensus as to what the heck Jesus was telling us in these twelve simple little words? Truthfully, I'm ready to file the Bible away in my bookcase for good and just trust Jesus to do what is just and right far as the disposal of my soul is concerned. Who needs all this anguish and turmoil trying to understand that which cannot be understood?

If anyone is masochistic enough, they can read the whole sad, sorry analysis here, though I must warn you it is a mind-bending read that will leave your brain in knots.

114. Punishment (kolasis, kolazein)

Last edited by thrillobyte; 07-22-2011 at 12:54 AM..
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Old 07-22-2011, 12:30 AM
 
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"Peace I leave with you, not as the world gives; do I give to you."

Whoever says, that there is an eternal (aidios) time set for punishment (torment) beyond this life is sadly mistaken.
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Old 07-22-2011, 01:51 AM
 
Location: Texas
14,078 posts, read 17,106,342 times
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What's the problem? It all made perfect sense to me, though it's rather too scholarly for my tastes. However, since Perkins IS a scholar, it's to be expected. Like a lot of deep thinkers, he uses many words when few would do.

In any case, remember what you're reading there. It's a refutation of something Rob Bell wrote moreso than a dissertation on that particular verse. Bell is the favorite whipping boy among fundamentalist's these days (with which I do not disagree) because he's floated some things which many believe to be unscriptural. Consequently, there's a lot of stuff out there explaining why he's wrong on many things. That's what you've found here.

If you're looking for a commentary which gives a pretty good overview of the Bible book by book, may I recommend Matthew Henry?

Blue Letter Bible - Commentaries - Matthew Henry - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible -

Or, if you prefer audio or video, J. Vernon McGee:

Blue Letter Bible - Audio & Video Commentaries - J. McGee - Guidelines

If you like the late Dr. McGee, you may order his notes from his website:

Welcome to Thru the Bible Radio--The Bible Study Program Taught by Dr. J. Vernon McGee! - Thru the Bible Radio (http://www.thruthebible.org/site/c.irLMKXPGLsF/b.4104119/k.949F/Welcome_to_Thru_the_Bible_RadioThe_Bible_Study_Pro gram_Taught_by_Dr_J_Vernon_McGee.htm - broken link)

I trust that when it comes to Bible study, you've already done the absolute first pre-requisite...confessed your faith in the Jesus Christ of the Bible and surrendered to the guidance of the Holy Spirt. If not, you'll never understand it.

Last edited by stillkit; 07-22-2011 at 02:39 AM..
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Old 07-22-2011, 01:58 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,587,605 times
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This song immediately came to my mind right as I was reading your post. I'd never heard this particular version of this song, so I was delighted when I went looking for the song on Youtube... Bless you


‪Ella Fitzgerald - Ac-Cent-Tchu-Ate The Positive‬‏ - YouTube
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Old 07-22-2011, 07:16 AM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,130,528 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
"Peace I leave with you, not as the world gives; do I give to you."

Whoever says, that there is an eternal (aidios) time set for punishment (torment) beyond this life is sadly mistaken.
...if only more people would come to this realization.

Reaping what you sow (Karma) happens in this life...that truly is hell.
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Old 07-22-2011, 07:52 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,771,861 times
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Very frustrating isn't is Thrillobyte? I can totally relate to what you're saying and I pretty much have done the unthinkable to some........I've filed away the Bible for now. Yes I still think it's the word of God but if something is causing strife and making you question EVERYTHING then it's time to take a breather from it. I depend solely on what is written in my heart by Jesus and refer to the scriptures if necessary for a debate or what have you but I had to put it down.

It's been this way for a while now, and NO is has nothing to do with my belief in UR. Some will say it does and that I've forsaken the Bible and am dependent upon my own understanding but that's not true. I know what's in there, it's already written in my head and heart and God understands that I think His word is valid but He also understands that it's been grossly tampered with and is extremely hard to come away from it without being confused and frustrated.

Now some will say that the "Holy Spirit" is not guiding me and that's why I gave up temporarily. That's not true either. The Holy Spirit IS indeed guiding me whether I get my information from a book or my heart, I know that God does not hold it against me that I'm frustrated with His word because of what men did to it. The Holy Spirit is ALWAYS with me, whether I'm reading the Bible or taking a nap. This may sound awful to the fundamentalists but it's what works for me at this point and time and that's what's important.

I'm not telling you to give up Thrill, I'm just sharing what I had to do to wade through it all. I'm not done with the Bible, I'm just taking a break. I know what I know what I know to be true and right that I've learned so far and no one can take that away from me. And I don't want to turn completely against God's word so a break was in order. Btw, I really need to get Rob Bell's book.....we are allowed to read OTHER books besides the Bible.
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Old 07-22-2011, 09:45 AM
 
10,224 posts, read 10,599,922 times
Reputation: 3066
Quote:
If you're looking for a commentary which gives a pretty good overview of the Bible book by book, may I recommend Matthew Henry?

Blue Letter Bible - Commentaries - Matthew Henry - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible -

Or, if you prefer audio or video, J. Vernon McGee:

Blue Letter Bible - Audio & Video Commentaries - J. McGee - Guidelines

If you like the late Dr. McGee, you may order his notes from his website:

Welcome to Thru the Bible Radio--The Bible Study Program Taught by Dr. J. Vernon McGee! - Thru the Bible Radio
Thanks much for those references, stillkit. I have listened to McGee often on the radio and find him a refreshing voice of reason. I will check the others out after a much needed "sabbatical" from all this.

Quote:
Very frustrating isn't is Thrillobyte? I can totally relate to what you're saying and I pretty much have done the unthinkable to some........I've filed away the Bible for now. Yes I still think it's the word of God but if something is causing strife and making you question EVERYTHING then it's time to take a breather from it. I depend solely on what is written in my heart by Jesus and refer to the scriptures if necessary for a debate or what have you but I had to put it down.

It's been this way for a while now, and NO is has nothing to do with my belief in UR. Some will say it does and that I've forsaken the Bible and am dependent upon my own understanding but that's not true. I know what's in there, it's already written in my head and heart and God understands that I think His word is valid but He also understands that it's been grossly tampered with and is extremely hard to come away from it without being confused and frustrated.

Now some will say that the "Holy Spirit" is not guiding me and that's why I gave up temporarily. That's not true either. The Holy Spirit IS indeed guiding me whether I get my information from a book or my heart, I know that God does not hold it against me that I'm frustrated with His word because of what men did to it. The Holy Spirit is ALWAYS with me, whether I'm reading the Bible or taking a nap. This may sound awful to the fundamentalists but it's what works for me at this point and time and that's what's important.

I'm not telling you to give up Thrill, I'm just sharing what I had to do to wade through it all. I'm not done with the Bible, I'm just taking a break. I know what I know what I know to be true and right that I've learned so far and no one can take that away from me. And I don't want to turn completely against God's word so a break was in order. Btw, I really need to get Rob Bell's book.....we are allowed to read OTHER books besides the Bible.
Yeah, you're right, Ilene. I think I've been trying to absorb too much too quick these last few months. A little vacation from all this study might do me good. I think that God maybe wants much of this shrouded in mystery for our own good. Someone once suggested that perhaps God does this in order for us to trust Him to do the right thing, whatever that thing may be. I think right now I need to know only two very important things:

1. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.
2. Jesus Christ, and Him crucified, died, and resurrected for the forgiveness of sins.

Ahhh...that felt good.

Everything else in the Bible for me at this point is just debating how many angels can stand on the head of a pin.

Thanks much for making some very important points about our walk with Jesus.
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Old 07-22-2011, 09:47 AM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
2,705 posts, read 2,514,222 times
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Quote:
Should We Really Have to Play These Guessing Games When Reading the Bible?
Absolutely, if by "playing these guessing games" you mean "interpreting Scripture."
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Old 07-22-2011, 09:49 AM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
2,705 posts, read 2,514,222 times
Reputation: 833
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
"Peace I leave with you, not as the world gives; do I give to you."

Whoever says, that there is an eternal (aidios) time set for punishment (torment) beyond this life is sadly mistaken.
Jesus said it.

Matt. 18:8, for one.

Try the Book of Revelation, Rev. 14:10.
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Old 07-22-2011, 10:04 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,771,861 times
Reputation: 58199
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Yeah, you're right, Ilene. I think I've been trying to absorb too much too quick these last few months. A little vacation from all this study might do me good. I think that God maybe wants much of this shrouded in mystery for our own good. Someone once suggested that perhaps God does this in order for us to trust Him to do the right thing, whatever that thing may be. I think right now I need to know only two very important things:

1. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.
2. Jesus Christ, and Him crucified, died, and resurrected for the forgiveness of sins.

Ahhh...that felt good.

Everything else in the Bible for me at this point is just debating how many angels can stand on the head of a pin.

Thanks much for making some very important points about our walk with Jesus.
Exactly!!! Ahhhhh....that does feel good to let go and let God. And LOL, that's about what our debating boils down to....how many angels can stand on the head of a pin!
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