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Old 07-25-2011, 08:46 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,023 posts, read 9,337,530 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Either way . . . why are you concerned about sacrifices to God? Christ already reconciled us to God That is the baptism of death He was to be baptised with for us ALL. Since Christ's death and rebirth as Spirit (resurrection) no one is WITHOUT the indwelling Holy Spirit (Comforter). They may be ignoring and rejecting the guidance . . . but they are not without it.

Christ was not reborn as a spirit! He was resurrected bodily from death!

1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
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Old 07-25-2011, 08:53 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,571,813 times
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Thank God that I know your views, Zero . . . or this post without the sarcasm smiley or any other indication of sarcasm would have concerned me.
It almost had me worried too!

Sacrificing animals, following set rituals, and saying, "Jesus is my personal Lord and Savior" three times is exactly what Jesus condemned.

They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
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Old 07-25-2011, 08:57 PM
 
Location: Texas
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Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Righteousness: characterized by, proceeding from, or in accordance with accepted standards of morality, justice, or uprightness; virtuous: a righteous man (dictionary.com)

Righteousness is upright behavior...

Look how its worded in Titus 3:

Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and to show true humility toward all men.

At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.

I emphasized a few things... to do good, to do righteous things, IS practicing righteous things.


Paul said, earlier in Titus, about the Pharisees: To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

Titus 2 is all about teaching others to be righteous...

I think you are under the impression that good deeds were condemned but sacrificing animals or oneself to a god is embraced. It was the other way around.

The pharisees said that following rules and sacrificing animals earned them righteousness when really loving one another and loving your god by doing good deeds is the very definition of righteousness...integrity, kindness, love.

1 Tim 1:15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst.

Saul was a sinner...a murderer who became Paul, full righteousness and love.

That is to know God... Whether you call him Fred, Buddha, or nothing at all.

The agnostic is doing God's work (the work of pure love) while the Christian is squandering God's gift...

That definition you offered from the dictionary is very similar to the definition of righteousness in the Old Testmeant Hebrew. Under the law, righteousness was determined by ones works or adherence to the Law.

But, in the New Testament Greek, under the New Covenent, it has a far different meaning:

dikaiosynē--State of him who is as he ought to be; the condition acceptable to God.

And how does one become acceptable to God under the New Covenent? It's not by what you do, but wholly and completely by faith in Jesus Christ! It is not a righteousness we earn by our good actions, it is a righteousness GIVEN to us, by God, for Christ's sake. I don't say so, God does.

Being in a right state with God, that is saved by the blood of Christ, should RESULT in righteous good works, not the other way around. Consequently, "righteous" good works done while still in the flesh (unsaved) mean nothing in terms of pleasing God or in attaining salvation.
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Old 07-25-2011, 09:00 PM
 
22,738 posts, read 10,479,462 times
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Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
Christ was not reborn as a spirit! He was resurrected bodily from death!
1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
Don't be ridiculous . . . of course He CAME in the flesh as a baby!!! He ascended as a Spirit as we ALL will. The ignorant and superstitious carnal primitives at the time were deathly afraid (terrified) of Spirits . . . hence the need for "milk" and not "solid food" to assuage their fears. That is why Christ "appeared" to have a body even though He passed through walls and doors without effort. The clues are there in the NT to revise the carnal "milk" once we had matured enough spiritually to not fear Spirits. Unfortunately . . . the reverence for the ancient fear doctrines stagnated our spiritual maturity and understanding at the carnal "milk" stage for over 2000 years.
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Old 07-25-2011, 09:04 PM
 
Location: USA
5,415 posts, read 1,931,978 times
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Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
What would you have us do when we believe someone is following the wrong path? Remain silent and let them go in their lostness? Lie and say, "Yeah, that's right!"

Doing that would make us unfaithful to either Christ or you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
I would never encourage you not to trust God. But, I WOULD encourage you to put all your faith and trust in the Jesus Christ of the Bible, to put aside your normal, human doubts and decide to have faith in Christ. Then, I'd urge you to confess that out loud to another person and be baptized.

Do you think none of us have any doubts? I've met believers who swear they don't, but I even doubt that. How can anyone be rational and possessed of even a modicum of intelligence and not wonder? Even Thomas, a man hand-selected by Jesus himself as a disciple, and a man who knew Him personally, expressed doubts!

If you're waiting for conclusive proof of the things you doubt, you won't find it. God did not give us that kind of absolute proof because believing in it then would not be an act of faith, which He desires us to have. What you WILL find is enough evidence to support a declaration of faith. Like a jury in a trial, you'll find a preponderance of the evidence points to the reliability of scripture, the reality of God and the truth of Jesus Christ.

That's enough to render a verdict of "I believe."
The "preponderance of evidence" does NOT point me to a belief in the stories of Jesus as being reliable historically, though I think they do express important spiritual truths, symbolically. So, do you see the irony here? You would not lie, but you expect me to lie by professing faith in something I do not believe. You think God's not going to know I'm lying?

More importantly, you say that you would never encourage someone to not have faith in God ... but you do not seem to realize that when you insist that it is the choice to have belief in "correct" doctrines (and what is correct is deciced by majority rule, perhaps?) which saves, you are absolutely discouraging people from trusting God to save.
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Old 07-25-2011, 09:09 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,023 posts, read 9,337,530 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Don't be ridiculous . . . of course He CAME in the flesh as a baby!!! He ascended as a Spirit as we ALL will. The ignorant and superstitious carnal primitives at the time were deathly afraid (terrified) of Spirits . . . hence the need for "milk" and not "solid food" to assuage their fears. That is why Christ "appeared" to have a body even though He passed through walls and doors without effort. The clues are there in the NT to revise the carnal "milk" once we had matured enough spiritually to not fear Spirits. Unfortunately . . . the reverence for the ancient fear doctrines stagnated our spiritual maturity and understanding at the carnal "milk" stage for over 2000 years.

In the Greek, that phrase "come in the flesh" means to come from one place to another, to appear, to show oneself in the human body.

That is precisely what Jesus Christ did when He came out of the grave. And then, He took that human body right up into heaven with him. (Acts 1:9).
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Old 07-25-2011, 09:12 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,023 posts, read 9,337,530 times
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Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
The "preponderance of evidence" does NOT point me to a belief in the stories of Jesus as being reliable historically, though I think they do express important spiritual truths, symbolically. So, do you see the irony here? You would not lie, but you expect me to lie by professing faith in something I do not believe. You think God's not going to know I'm lying?
If you don't see the evidence necessary to believe, then don't. It's your choice. I pray, though, that you keep looking and find Christ before you die.

Quote:
More importantly, you say that you would never encourage someone to not have faith in God ... but you do not seem to realize that when you insist that it is the choice to have belief in "correct" doctrines (and what is correct is deciced by majority rule, perhaps?) which saves, you are absolutely discouraging people from trusting God to save.
You'll have to take that up with God as it is He who dictated that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven, not me.
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Old 07-25-2011, 09:13 PM
 
22,738 posts, read 10,479,462 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
That definition you offered from the dictionary is very similar to the definition of righteousness in the Old Testmeant Hebrew. Under the law, righteousness was determined by ones works or adherence to the Law.

But, in the New Testament Greek, under the New Covenent, it has a far different meaning:

dikaiosynē--State of him who is as he ought to be; the condition acceptable to God.

And how does one become acceptable to God under the New Covenent? It's not by what you do, but wholly and completely by faith in Jesus Christ! It is not a righteousness we earn by our good actions, it is a righteousness GIVEN to us, by God, for Christ's sake. I don't say so, God does.
No . . . it doesn't have a different meaning. The retention of ancient ignorance has twisted it into an unrecognizable perversion of righteousness in easy believism. The condition acceptable to God is the one achieved by Christ and we acquire His grace by our efforts to "love God and each other" daily. Following the inner guidance of His Holy Spirit is how we "believe ON" Christ. The righteousness of Christ applies to our entire species which was unable to achieve the perfection required to connect ALL humankind to God eternally. Jesus did that for us. But that is not the end of it. We must be sanctified and that is by our efforts to build on the foundation Christ laid for us through "love of God and each other." There will be consequences if we fail and don't repent of those failures . . . but we are saved nonetheless.
Quote:
Being in a right state with God, that is saved by the blood of Christ, should RESULT in righteous good works, not the other way around. Consequently, "righteous" good works done while still in the flesh (unsaved) mean nothing in terms of pleasing God or in attaining salvation.
No one is unsaved, period . . . but not all are sanctified . . . and our "works" are important to that task.
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Old 07-25-2011, 09:16 PM
 
22,738 posts, read 10,479,462 times
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Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
In the Greek, that phrase "come in the flesh" means to come from one place to another, to appear, to show oneself in the human body.

That is precisely what Jesus Christ did when He came out of the grave. And then, He took that human body right up into heaven with him. (Acts 1:9).
Rubbish!
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Old 07-25-2011, 09:26 PM
 
22,738 posts, read 10,479,462 times
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Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
If you don't see the evidence necessary to believe, then don't. It's your choice. I pray, though, that you keep looking and find Christ before you die.
When will you easy believism people learn that belief in God is NOT a choice. IT either exists or it doesn't and the ONLY evidence of its existence is in our "fruits." I am absolutely certain that you cannot CHOOSE to believe something you currently are absolutely positively convinced is NOT true. The only things you can choose to believe are those thing you do NOT truly believe in at all. If the alternatives represent a choice to you . . . then you believe none of them. You can only make an intellectual acceptance of them. That is NOT belief.
Quote:
You'll have to take that up with God as it is He who dictated that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven, not me.
Christ IS the only Way to God because only He possessed the perfect consciousness necessary to produce a perfect resonance (IDENTITY) with God's consciousness in a human brain. Now ALL our consciousnesses have access to God through His perfect human consciousness.
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