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Okay. We disagree on this point, but at least we agree that there is no eternal torment.
And we both are extremely thankful for that!!!
Something to ponder.
When the sun comes up we don't "decide" that the reason we think the sun has come up (the red ball on the horizon) is the STRONGEST reason.
IT JUST IS THE STRONGEST REASON by virtue of the effect its appearance is having on our mind.
It's the same way with all choices.
We don't "decide" if the reasons we choose one thing over another are the STRONGEST reasons. THEY JUST ARE by virtue of the effect they are having on our mind.
"Therefore any choice contrary to what we prefer the most (or so-called “free" will) not only does not exist but cannot exist."
IMO the idea that our choice would have no "moral value" if it was caused to occur is an ethical idea that is rendered irrelevant by the fact that we always, without exception, choose in the direction of the choice we prefer the most at any given point in time.
Personally, I don't think the moral value of our choice is at all dimished by the existence of causality.
"A will that is influenced by anything—let alone God—cannot in any way be construed as free."
I think that's a quote from legoman.
When the sun comes up we don't "decide" that the reason we think the sun has come up (the red ball on the horizon) is the STRONGEST reason.
IT JUST IS THE STRONGEST REASON by virtue of the effect its appearance is having on our mind.
It's the same way with all choices.
We don't "decide" if the reasons we choose one thing over another are the STRONGEST reasons. THEY JUST ARE by virtue of the effect they are having on our mind.
"Therefore any choice contrary to what we prefer the most (or so-called “free" will) not only does not exist but cannot exist."
IMO the idea that our choice would have no "moral value" if it was caused to occur is an ethical idea that is rendered irrelevant by the fact that we always, without exception, choose in the direction of the choice we prefer the most at any given point in time.
Personally, I don't think the moral value of our choice is at all dimished by the existence of causality.
"A will that is influenced by anything—let alone God—cannot in any way be construed as free."
I think that's a quote from legoman.
Rodger . . . your faith is admirable but your understanding of God is wrong-headed. Dominion on the earth REQUIRES our free will and it is by God's express Will that it is so. Your faith that even the most heinous of things that happen here are the result of God's plan may comfort you and reassure you that God is sufficiently all-powerful to qualify as God. But I am certain it is wrong. I have encountered God and there is nothing but unconditional love and acceptance in His character . . . pure love Rodger. There is no way He would author evil for ANY purpose, period. Children must learn to deal with adult issues on their own. We are God's children expected to reproduce His consciousness. But you are correct that He will make all things good in the end. (BTW deterministic causation has been discredited by quantum theory.)
I'm glad you believe God will make all things good in the end
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Rodger . . . your faith is admirable but your understanding of God is wrong-headed. Dominion on the earth REQUIRES our free will and it is by God's express Will that it is so. Your faith that even the most heinous of things that happen here are the result of God's plan may comfort you and reassure you that God is sufficiently all-powerful to qualify as God. But I am certain it is wrong. I have encountered God and there is nothing but unconditional love and acceptance in His character . . . pure love Rodger. There is no way He would author evil for ANY purpose, period. Children must learn to deal with adult issues on their own. We are God's children expected to reproduce His consciousness. But you are correct that He will make all things good in the end. (BTW deterministic causation has been discredited by quantum theory.)
What is quantum theory, and how does it discredit deterministic causation?
I'm glad you believe God will make all things good in the end.
Does the quantum theory contradict Albert Einstein?
Does the quantum theory contradict Albert Einstein, who said,
“I do not at all believe in human freedom in the [popular] philosophical sense. Everybody acts not only from external compulsion but also in accordance with inner necessity. . . . A man’s actions are determined by necessity, external and internal, so that he cannot be responsible [i.e., able to act otherwise], any more than an inanimate object is responsible for the motion it undergoes."
Does the quantum theory contradict Albert Einstein, who said,
“I do not at all believe in human freedom in the [popular] philosophical sense. Everybody acts not only from external compulsion but also in accordance with inner necessity. . . . A man’s actions are determined by necessity, external and internal, so that he cannot be responsible [i.e., able to act otherwise], any more than an inanimate object is responsible for the motion it undergoes."
Yes it does, Rodger because it asserts that we (the observers) establish the ultimate reality that we encounter among the infinite probable ones that lie before us. Determinism does not exist at the quantum level . . . it is all probabilistic. But that only reinforces the importance of our free will. It does NOT eliminate the importance of the various influences on us and their strength . . . especially the Holy Spirit within that pricks our conscience and convicts our actions.
Yes it does, Rodger because it asserts that we (the observers) establish the ultimate reality that we encounter among the infinite probable ones that lie before us. Determinism does not exist at the quantum level . . . it is all probabilistic. But that only reinforces the importance of our free will. It does NOT eliminate the importance of the various influences on us and their strength . . . especially the Holy Spirit within that pricks our conscience and convicts our actions.
If you say so.
I give up.
legoman, you there? got any thoughts?
The Bible says God told Pharoah to "Let my people go" and yet God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he would not let Israel go. Exodus 4:21
MORE
Psalm 105:25 "God turned their hearts to hate His people"
Proverbs 21:1 "The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord. He turneth it withersoever He will."
Isaiah 63:17 "Oh Lord, why hast Thou made us to err from Thy ways, and hardened our heart from Thy fear?"
Isaiah 45:7 "I create evil" (literally badness)
Romans 11:32 "For God has bound all men over to disobedience"
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I think that's a quote from legoman
Does the quantum theory contradict Albert Einstein?
How God influences behaviour
