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If you say so.
I give up.
legoman, you there? got any thoughts?
LOL
I gave my view back in post #31. No one really commented on it though, so what can I do?
Free will is essentially a misnomer. Also I didn't think June's thread was going to turn into a massive free will debate... been there done that, most people don't change their mind due to people inherently using different definitions. I can understand the arguments of other people, but from how I see it they don't line up with observable fact and with what scripture says. C'est la vie...
The answer is simply this. We always choose towards the strongest influence (which includes our own internal desires and outside influences). Otherwise we wouldn't have chosen it.
Here was my original post about choosing and "free will":
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The "free will" debate plays into this heavily. The problem is the definition of "free will" is often vague and changes frequently.
For example people will say free will is the ability to make a choice. And certainly we do make choices - no one is denying that. However that definition of free will is not very useful.
Cats make choices.
Computers make choices.
Mosquitoes make choices.
So when we talk about free will, are we suggesting that cats and mosquitoes have free will? Most people would not say that. Yet those things do make choices. Even computers make choices - they are very very fast at it. What we actually have to look at is how and why we make choices. Look at a computer. It makes choices according to its programming. So does it have "free will"? No, the computer is not free to do anything other than what it was programmed to do. Yet it still makes choices.
We could analyze the cat or the mosquito and come to some conclusions about why they make choices. The mosquito is attracted to certain light patterns and the warmth of human skin, so it chooses to move a certain way. It is acting and choosing according to its nature. Likewise with a cat, although its instincts are perhaps more advanced than a mosquito.
So then we come to humans. Do we have a free will? Certainly we make choices. But why do we make those choices? If you honestly sit down and think about this, you will see that every choice we make is impacted by influences that are outside our control: desires, circumstances, environment, and experiences.
You might say I can choose to not eat cheese because I don't like it. And that's true, you are completely able to make that choice. You could also choose to eat cheese in spite of the fact that you hate the taste of it.
But what you are not able to do, is to choose to like cheese, when you don't actually like cheese. You cannot choose your desires.
Circumstances happen that you have no control over that cause you to choose a certain action. You had no freedom in whether the circumstance would happen or not, you were forced to react to it and make a choice. Likewise with environment. No one can choose where they were born, who their parents were - and that has a big impact in what you become. And experiences are just the sum of knowledge that you have learned. What you are exposed to and what you learn will affect your future decisions.
That was a bit long but what this all comes down is that we choose according to our nature. And there is nothing "free" about that in the sense of "free will".
So people will bring up the "free will" argument claiming that we make choices (therefore we must have free will) or we would be robots without free will, etc. But these are just red herrings. What we actually do is choose according to our nature, and our nature is affected by all the things around us, and the desires and gifts we have been given from birth.
Legoman,
You are focused on the minutia and not the big picture. Dominion requires free will and as God's children we are to mature into His offspring with His characteristics. (The reference in scripture to the word "perfect" actually means mature.) God is NOT constrained in His decisions. We need to learn how to function without external constraint as well. We cannot do that if our every decision is controlled by God. We are to reproduce our portion of God's consciousness with characteristics as close to His as possible . . . by our free will.
If the strongest influence (like coaching from a parent) in the mind of the baby is to get from one place to another standing up, the baby will try to take those steps. But if the strongest influence in the mind of the baby is to get there by it's usual way of crawling, that is what it will do instead.
In either case the baby's will is only "free" to do which ever mode of movement is having the strongest influence on its mind at that particular point in time.
At this point, the child's movement is by "instinct" alone, there is no other influence (weak or strong) that dictates the child to walk or crawl in any direction...except the trust that developed from the parent's nurturing presence. aisi
~Unless we become like little children and put our complete trust in "The Creator," we will not comprehend the extent of God's love...
Legoman,
You are focused on the minutia and not the big picture. Dominion requires free will and as God's children we are to mature into His offspring with His characteristics. (The reference in scripture to the word "perfect" actually means mature.) God is NOT constrained in His decisions. We need to learn how to function without external constraint as well. We cannot do that if our every decision is controlled by God. We are to reproduce our portion of God's consciousness with characteristics as close to His as possible . . . by our free will.
But it is the minutia that defines really what we are talking about here. I can see what you are saying, but my first question would be: what do you mean by free will?
Also do you believe there is only one future timeline - the timeline that God knows (and has effectively planned) will happen?
Anyway I agree that God gave us dominion and that we must make choices - and we make those choices in accordance with what we know and understand and what we desire. However I would not call that free will as I explained previously... "free" will implies "free from any constraints and influences" or "free to do absolutely anything". But the reality is that any choice we make is always as the result of some other influence or cause or reason - even if that influence is our own desire and nature (which we don't necessarily have any control over how that was defined).
I don't think God is specifically controlling our actions, as if He was moving my fingers right now to type this message. Certainly I am choosing to do what I want of my own will (not a true free will though). But I and everyone else chooses to do what they do because of the circumstances and desires they were given. You play the hand you were dealt, so to speak.
IMHO this is always a tough topic because of the emotional vested interest in the idea of free will and because people are using different definitions for all these terms such as 'free will', 'choice', 'dominion', 'control', 'cause', 'sovereignty' etc.
For me looking at it on the small scale confirms it for me. I cannot think of one choice that I have made in my entire life that I did not make because of some previous reason or influence or cause. Can you?
There are many forks in the road (choices) that I greatly wished I did not have to make at the time, and still have choices I am faced with, that I do not wish to make still. I strongly believe God brings us to each choice to learn some particular lesson he has for us, and not for us only, but for all those involved in the outcome of that choice. even the angels look on with interest. I don't see how else the Father could be controlling what happens on earth, without being aware of and in control of even one single sparrow falling from the sky.
Some say He will just say one day, ENOUGH, and take over. But I don't believe that at all. That evil exists is only because God allows it to exist or He is not God and cannot control much of anything. I believe that He, in His infinite wisdom, engineered its introduction into the universe, and when it has served His purpose, will never rear it's ugly head again.
He created our DNA in Adam right from the beginning. He knew and, I believe, planned it all right from the beginning, as a master author of the greatest novel ever written.
All who were born of Adam were thrust into the consequences of Adam's (and Eve's) sin without their consent or involvement in the deed, long before they were born, and that same all who were born of Adam are placed into Yeshua without their consent or direct involvement in the righteousness of His son. And God planned it that way from the beginning. That is what and who God is, the author and finisher of our faith, our life, our love. He did not start the building not knowing if He had the means to finish it. He planned every last detail of it. The magnificence of He who formed the galaxies is that we could possibly believe that we have any control. We ARE self aware. We learn, we grow, we evolve, into the Sons that He planned from the 'beginning'.
Praise His Holy Name, who He is, and His marvelous plan to bring His will to pass.
I'm just making observations here... no deep conclusions...
For Eve I think the answer to your question is given in Genesis 3:6
1. She saw that the fruit was good for food
2. Pleasant to the eyes
3. Desired to make one wise
In truth God's reason was the stronger, but to Eve's mind the serpent's reasoning seemed stronger.
Eve chose to let those desires to overpower God's command... but Eve did not choose any of the following things:
- she did not choose for the fruit to be good for food
- she did not choose to be someone who desires food
- she did not choose for the fruit to seem pleasant to her eye
- she did not choose to be someone who desires pleasant things
- she did not choose for the fruit to give wisdom
- she did not choose to be someone desires wisdom
I'm saying we don't choose to desire food, pleasant things, wisdom... those are innate. But Eve did choose to allow those innate desires to overpower her willingness to obey God's command.
Whether Eve could have summoned the strength to obey in spite of those innate pressures I think is where you Scott will say yes, but others will say no. But from my understanding... you probably could agree with everything else above.
Yes Bod I do beleive eve could have overcome those innate preasures.
We are to overcome and if we can do nothing but follow one of these natures it is the nature that overcomes not us.
When my 6-year old daughter falls off her bike, scrapes her knee, looks at me with tears streaming down her face, and I run over to comfort her, is that done by compulsion or willingly? Both. There is no way I could not run over to comfort her - I am compulsed (if that is even a word! lol) to do it. And I do it willingly.
I liked that but disagree, you could have overcome the compulsion to run to your child, but because of your love for her it never even occurs to you to do such a thing.
Because the fall was God's idea.
IMO It was not even possible for Adam to not eat from the tree.
God made sure that Adam would eat from the tree by allowing the voice of the serpent to be the strongest influence in his life because God wanted a foil of contrast with which He could manifest and magnify and glorify the many facets of His character throughout all creation.
Roger what you believe here is in total disregard to the scriptures and is a total turn around form other things you believe. You do this because you are still under the belief that God can do evil or create evil. Until you understand that God has nothing to do with evil you will continue to show forth confusion in your posts.
Example: you believe it is God will that none perish, then turn around and say God planned for Adam to eat and perish.
Brother if it was impossible for Adam not to eat then Gods commandment not to eat is nothing but a sham.
Quote:
Through the interplay of good and evil God will eventually achieve more glorious goals for everyone than ever could have been achieved had God not let the serpent be the strongest influence on Adam.
I’m convinced that after we have thought the very best thoughts about God, we can be sure that He is even better than that because He is able to do above what we can even think, Ephesians 3:20. And IMHO I cannot think any higher thoughts than universal transformation.
I believe that after our resurrection from the dead God will eventually somehow transform every second of everyone's suffering into something better that it happened.
That includes both the unexplained and seemingly unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees, as well as what the Bible calls "kolasis aionion" which means age-during corrective chastisement that everyone who needs it will experience.
Roger you need to stop believing everything you read, your belief mirrors that of Israel of old, they to believed God was in control of the evil that surrounded them stating things like if evil is in a city God was the cause of that evil. Brother these men and women wrote what they believed about God the same as we are doing. However, Jesus who came to reveal the Father gives a total different picture of the Father then what old Israel gave of the Father. Why did He have to do this? Because the view of the Father old Israel had was in error.
The Father said HEAR HIM, speaking of Jesus, neither Moses nor Elijah have the answer of who the Father is we must listen to Jesus Christ.
Rodger . . . your faith is admirable but your understanding of God is wrong-headed. Dominion on the earth REQUIRES our free will and it is by God's express Will that it is so. Your faith that even the most heinous of things that happen here are the result of God's plan may comfort you and reassure you that God is sufficiently all-powerful to qualify as God. But I am certain it is wrong. I have encountered God and there is nothing but unconditional love and acceptance in His character . . . pure love Rodger. There is no way He would author evil for ANY purpose, period. Children must learn to deal with adult issues on their own. We are God's children expected to reproduce His consciousness. But you are correct that He will make all things good in the end. (BTW deterministic causation has been discredited by quantum theory.)
Yes, yes , yes, what mystic just said
Sometimes bro/sis I think we bang our heads against the wall telling people God has nothing to do with evil.
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