A Question (Christian, mercy, Hebrew, Greek)

[pneuma]

Lego and Roger , some things to think about

1 Peter 5:2 Says

2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint , but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready (willing) mind;

If Gods nature must constrain us to feed the flock we are not doing it willingly.

Constraint

317 anagkastos { an-ang-kas-toce’}

from a derivative of 315;; adv

AV - by constraint 1; 1

GK - 339 { ajnagkastw`" }

1) by force or constrain
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.

Rooted in

315 anagkazo { an-ang-kad’-zo}

from 318; TDNT - 1:344,55; v

AV - compel 5, constrain 4; 9

GK - 337 { ajnagkavzw }

1) to necessitate, compel, drive to, constrain
1a) by force, threats, etc.
1b) by permission, entreaties, etc.
1c) by other means
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.

Rooted in

318 anagke { an-ang-kay’}

from 303 and the base of 43; TDNT - 1:344,55; n f

AV - necessity 7, must needs 3, distress 3, must of necessity 2, need + 2192 1, necessary 1, needful 1; 18

GK - 340 { ajnavgkh }

1) necessity, imposed either by the circumstances, or by law of duty regarding to one’s advantage, custom, argument
2) calamity, distress, straits
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.


Thus we can see that we are not to be compulsed by the circumstances that surround us. We might be bombarded on every side and God and satan might be compelling us to do certain things but we must make the choice of whom we will serves willingly and of a willing mind.

Psalm 32:8-9
8 I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye. 9 Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.

One who has to be lead about by bit and bridle is one who lacks understanding.

Brothers, if it is Gods nature in us that makes the choice for us we are moved about by the bit and bridle in our mouths, same as if satans nature makes the choice for us.

A horse with a bit and bridle cannot choose which way it want to go, it is led about by the one who hold the reigns. And what you guys are saying is God holds your reigns and moves you about this way and that way.

Now when one is a child one ( one who lacks understanding)can be said to be moved about with bit and bridle (when he is young a son is no different then a servant), However God wants us to grow up in maturity and take over the Father business.

What I see is to many of God people wanting to stay in infancy, refusing to walk on their own and take over the Father business.

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by ScarletWren

There are many forks in the road (choices) that I greatly wished I did not have to make at the time, and still have choices I am faced with, that I do not wish to make still. I strongly believe God brings us to each choice to learn some particular lesson he has for us, and not for us only, but for all those involved in the outcome of that choice. even the angels look on with interest. I don't see how else the Father could be controlling what happens on earth, without being aware of and in control of even one single sparrow falling from the sky.

Some say He will just say one day, ENOUGH, and take over. But I don't believe that at all. That evil exists is only because God allows it to exist or He is not God and cannot control much of anything. I believe that He, in His infinite wisdom, engineered its introduction into the universe, and when it has served His purpose, will never rear it's ugly head again.

He created our DNA in Adam right from the beginning. He knew and, I believe, planned it all right from the beginning, as a master author of the greatest novel ever written.

All who were born of Adam were thrust into the consequences of Adam's (and Eve's) sin without their consent or involvement in the deed, long before they were born, and that same all who were born of Adam are placed into Yeshua without their consent or direct involvement in the righteousness of His son. And God planned it that way from the beginning. That is what and who God is, the author and finisher of our faith, our life, our love. He did not start the building not knowing if He had the means to finish it. He planned every last detail of it. The magnificence of He who formed the galaxies is that we could possibly believe that we have any control. We ARE self aware. We learn, we grow, we evolve, into the Sons that He planned from the 'beginning'.

Praise His Holy Name, who He is, and His marvelous plan to bring His will to pass.

"Oh the depths and riches...."

AMEN ScarletWren!

I believe iin God's intimate sovereign control over every life for the purpose of, sooner or later, fitting them uniquely into His master plan in a way that is forever free from sin, death, and suffering.

[Thy Kingdom Come]

Originally Posted by pneuma

Yes Bod I do beleive eve could have overcome those innate preasures.

We are to overcome and if we can do nothing but follow one of these natures it is the nature that overcomes not us.

Our nature is part of us. I think its wrong to view a person as being broken down into component parts (nature, preferences, reasonings) and then ascribe the choice to one of those components and not the man. For example, you believe in free will. I could say... if you choose good.. its not you... its your free will making the choice. But that would be an erroneous statement on my part since if free will exists it is part of the person himself. Likewise,... if my nature is evil then I am evil. If my nature is loving and merciful... then I am loving and merciful. If my nature is the reason I choose evil then my heart is the reason and I am at fault.

As to whether Eve "could have" maybe its a moot point. Even if any person "could have" chosen life... not one did. All chose the path of death and needed to be saved. And yet all will choose life in the end. To me that is strong evidence that God and not free will... will be the ultimate cause of each person choosing life. Because none did, but all will. And I notice with regard to making the choice to enter into eternal life.... Jesus said it is impossible for men... but possible with God.

[pneuma]

As to whether Eve "could have" maybe its a moot point. Even if any person "could have" chosen life... not one did.

Bob Jesus did and he is our example.

I don't care if no one else ever choose life Christ is my example not any other.

[pneuma]

Originally Posted by rodgertutt

AMEN ScarletWren!

I believe iin God's intimate sovereign control over every life for the purpose of, sooner or later, fitting them uniquely into His master plan in a way that is forever free from sin, death, and suffering.

Roger for God to be in control of this earth then His will must be being done in this earth. Yet Jesus taught us to pray thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Brother look at the evidence.

People are still perishing, yet it is Gods will that NONE perish.

Thus showing that His will is not yet being done on the earth.

As long as people continue to perish Gods will is not being done on the earth. However, the time is comming when the kingdoms of this world will become the kingdoms of Christ and at that time Gods will will be done and there will be no more death as it will then be deafeated.

[Heartsong]

Originally Posted by legoman

As Phaze and pneuma said, there is disagreement with any circle on any number of details.

As to your question, what do URs and ETs agree on? Perhaps the very basics:
- God exists
- Jesus was His son, the very image of God

Perhaps a few other things.

Here I see is the main issue. ETs will say they believe in certain things, but when you really dig into it, you can see they do not. ET beliefs are self-contradictory. Let me give you some examples:

1. Jesus is the savior of the world

UR: yes I agree with that.
ET: me too.
UR: Since Jesus is the savior of the world, He must save the world otherwise He would fail at His stated mission.
ET: Oh no Jesus won't save the world.
UR: But you agree He is the savior of the world?
ET: Oh yes He is the savior of the world. He just won't save everyone.
UR:

2. God is in control of all things

UR: yep, God is control.
ET: yes, definitely.
UR: then God is even in control of our salvation.
ET: well in the sense that He offers it to everyone. But He can't control your decision, He's not in control of that.
UR: But you just agreed that God is in control of all thing!?!
ET: Everything except man's will...
UR: So then God is not in control of everything...

3. Salvation is of God, not man

UR: yep, definitely.
ET: agree, we are not saved by our works.
UR: then you agree there is nothing we can do to save ourself.
ET: oh no you have to make the right decision
UR: but you just said salvation is of God and we are not saved by our works!

4. God is love
UR: of course
ET: agree. But God is also just.
UR: why do you use the word "but"? God is love AND God is just.
ET: God is love but He has to be just too.
UR: God's justice is not contradictory to His love.



IMHO this is the essential issue of the debate. ET is self-contradictory in nature, so if you are trying to defend ET you will be forced to believe contradictions. And if you are believing contradictions, then all logic and reason has been thrown out the window.

Mental gymnastics -- that's what some people call it when trying to explain the ET contradictions. Good post.

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by pneuma

Rodger for God to be in control of this earth then His will must be being done in this earth. Yet Jesus taught us to pray thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Brother look at the evidence.

People are still perishing, yet it is Gods will that NONE perish.

Thus showing that His will is not yet being done on the earth.

As long as people continue to perish Gods will is not being done on the earth. However, the time is comming when the kingdoms of this world will become the kingdoms of Christ and at that time Gods will will be done and there will be no more death as it will then be deafeated.

I believe that everything is happening exactly the way God wants it to within the wise counsel of His "decretive" will which is that which MUST occur, including the temporary violating of His "preceptive" will which is that which we OUGHT to do, e.g. THE GLODEN RULE, and choosing Jesus Christ.

IMO, everything HAS to happen the way that it does, including all of our efforts to assist or prevent it from happening.

I believe that when we all look back from the point of view of the consummation of God's plan for the ages of time we will all agree that it was better for everyone that everything happend the way that it did as God fits everyone into His master plan in their own unique way, a way that will bring glory to Himself, and blessing to every individual.

For me, that is how much God is in complete control of everything all of the time.

[pneuma]

Originally Posted by rodgertutt

I believe that everything is happening exactly the way God wants it to within the wise counsel of His "decretive" will which is that which MUST occur, including the temporary violating of His "preceptive" will which is that which we OUGHT to do, e.g. THE GLODEN RULE, and choosing Jesus Christ.

IMO, everything HAS to happen the way that it does, including all of our efforts to assist or prevent it from happening.

I believe that when we all look back from the point of view of the consummation of God's plan for the ages of time we will all agree that it was better for everyone that everything happend the way that it did as God fits everyone into His master plan in their own unique way, a way that will bring glory to Himself, and blessing to every individual.

For me, that is how much God is in complete control of everything all of the time.

Then you do not really beleive that it is Gods will that none should perish.

What difference is there between your beleif on perishing and ET beleif on perishing, none that I can see except you beleive God wills people to perish and ET beleives God does not want people to perish but some will perish.

Ya know the more I talk with my fellow beleivers in UR the more I realise we don't have much in common except the end product the salvation of the world.

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by pneuma

Then you do not really believe that it is God's will that none should perish.

What difference is there between your beleif on perishing and ET beleif on perishing, none that I can see except you beleive God wills people to perish and ET beleives God does not want people to perish but some will perish.

Ya know the more I talk with my fellow beleivers in UR the more I realise we don't have much in common except the end product the salvation of the world.

It certainly is God's will that none should perish, or remain lost. That is why no one will.

As I think you already know, the same Greek word for perish is also the word for being lost. I believe that everyone will remain in a state of being lost until God lays hold on them by His sovereign grace and makes Jesus "choice" in their heart like He did for Lydia, Saul of Tarsus, and Nebuchadnezzar who saw Jesus in the fire with the three Hebrew men. It's all a matter of God's timing.

Can you imagine anyone of those three exercising their "free" will and choosing to turn their back on God after God revealed Himself to them like He did? Not a "chance" eh!

Our conversion was probably not so dramatic, but it was none the less the product of God's undefeatable grace, plus nothing. Until God lays hold on us by His sovereign grace and makes Jesus "choice" in our heart I believe that everyone's will, will remain in the condition of Romans 3:10-18.

But no one will eternally remain in a state of being lost because "God will have all men to be saved" (1Tim. 2:4).

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by pneuma

Ya know the more I talk with my fellow beleivers in UR the more I realise we don't have much in common except the end product the salvation of the world.

I have no problem with that pneuma, because our unity is or should be in who HE is.This makes all the difference in my mind.I know it's difficult at times for all of us to see God for who he really is because of our tree of knowledge of good and evil(the veil of ignorance that gives us the misconception of who he really is)) mentality,but we are changed into that image of who He really is, as we behold it.

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.2 Cor 3:18

We are being changed into the likeness the God we believe in.