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If it wasn't needed, then why allow it? Ultimately, if one believes that God created this universe then one, of necessity, believes God assumes responsbility for all that happens within it ... and that includes evil, yes?
I see the potential pitfalls in going to either extreme: a belief in absolute determinism takes away the impetus to make wise/loving choices. But the opposte extreme leaves us with either a sense of self-righteousness that we made better choices than others which leads to having no compassion, or it leaves us with a sense of abandonment and lack of empowerment.
I guess I just see both sides of the coin being somehow co-existent ... We are responsible for our choices, but somehow the buck stops with God. How that works, precisely, I don't know and I'm not sure it's possible to know. All we can do is function within the way we perceive reality ... which is that we do have choices to make ... trusting that God is in some way in control of the situation.
It's honestly beyond me and it always baffles me that people can argue either side with such assuredness, lol.
Because just like the parable of the 10 blind men...each hold and feel part of the truth, and concluded that what they hold is the whole truth.
Rodger God love ya brother but to me this is double speak.
First you say it is Gods will that none perish.
Then you say it is Gods will that Adam/man perish.
You cannot have it both ways.
I believe God through Christ will have His will in everything but His will is not yet beiing done in the earth even though you and many other beleive it is.
The prayer Jesus taught us to pray is not a redundant prayer.
I see a difference between God's "decretive" will, which is that which MUST occur, and God's "preceptive" will, which is that which man OUGHT to do.
If anything at all happens in God's creation it is because, within His decretive will, He wants it to happen.
Nothing at all happens unless an omnipotent God wants it to, otherwise He would not be all-powerful.
Everything has to happen the way that it does, including all of our attempts to assist it or prevent it from happening.
The end result will be universal transformation, i.e. the transformation of all evil and suffering into something better for everyone that it happened.
You are correct. Dominion is so poorly understood, pneuma. God has established the laws that govern our reality and life on the earth . . . but we have Dominion and the free will necessary to exercise it. However, God's laws (all of them, not just the physical) place boundaries and constraints on us. They are what produce consequences when they are violated. Comforting as it may be to think God is controlling every little thing . . . it is not true . . . by His express WILL. However, the ultimate end result will be under His control.
I see a difference between God's "decretive" will, which is that which MUST occur, and God's "preceptive" will, which is that which man OUGHT to do.
If anything at all happens in God's creation it is because, within His decretive will, He wants it to happen.
Nothing at all happens unless an omnipotent God wants it to, otherwise He would not be all-powerful.
Everything has to happen the way that it does, including all of our attempts to assist it or prevent it from happening.
The end result will be universal transformation, i.e. the transformation of all evil and suffering into something better for everyone that it happened.
Will is will brother, you are adding to scripture if you beleive it is Gods decretive will that men perish. No scripture states such a thing, but scripture does state it is Gods will that none perish.
You simply cannot have Gods will doing two seperate things, especially when one of those things is contrary to the scripture that states it is Gods will that none perish.
Will is will brother, you are adding to scripture if you beleive it is Gods decretive will that men perish. No scripture states such a thing, but scripture does state it is Gods will that none perish.
You simply cannot have Gods will doing two seperate things, especially when one of those things is contrary to the scripture that states it is Gods will that none perish.
No doubt we will both die disagreeing on this.
Everything that happens is God's "decretive" will.
He's the Boss.
Nothing at all can happen unless He allows it.
That is what His "decretive" will is --- everything that happens.
That's what omnipotence is --- all power to do whatever He wants, which includes letting Adam choose to be apollumi (lost, or perished)
It was not God's "preceptive" will for Adam to disobey, the precept being "Don't eat of the tree."
But it was God's "decretive" will (that which MUST occur) for Adam to disobey.
Last edited by rodgertutt; 08-01-2011 at 11:48 PM..
"Sin was allowed for wise ends, and only after these have been secured will sin cease to exist. Adam's disobedience was part of God’s purpose of the ages and redemption’s glory will only shine out the more after the plan’s execution.
God never allows sin to go beyond His transforming power. God always has everything under perfect control.
It is not – what was lost by the fall was to be regained by redemption, BUT by the interaction of FALL AND REDEMPTION, God achieves greater, wiser, nobler, and higher goals than by the Adamic race remaining in its pristine state.
Evil and good are synchronized to accomplish God’s will and purpose, so that the ultimate goal shall reveal all evil transformed back into good, and all negation cancelled out by GOOD. Evil is allowed for wise ends, and when these are secured it must cease to exist, for God will restore all things into good. HE controls all the interaction between evil and good until His purpose of the ages is fulfilled. Then shall God be All in all."
Last edited by rodgertutt; 08-01-2011 at 11:26 PM..
"Sin was allowed for wise ends, and only after these have been secured will sin cease to exist. Adam's disobedience was part of God’s purpose of the ages and redemption’s glory will only shine out the more after the plan’s execution.
God never allows sin to go beyond His transforming power. God always has everything under perfect control.
It is not – what was lost by the fall was to be regained by redemption, BUT by the interaction of FALL AND REDEMPTION, God achieves greater, wiser, nobler, and higher goals than by the Adamic race remaining in its pristine state.
Evil and good are synchronized to accomplish God’s will and purpose, so that the ultimate goal shall reveal all evil transformed back into good, and all negation cancelled out by GOOD. Evil is allowed for wise ends, and when these are secured it must cease to exist, for God will restore all things into good. HE controls all the interaction between evil and good until His purpose of the ages is fulfilled. Then shall God be All in all."
Roger I have read many such statement as this and I disagree with them all.
Because people cannot see how God can be sovereign and evil and sin to exist they make up stuff from their own reasoning to explain evil and sin in this earth.
However sovereignty and dominion are the same thing and they represent kingship. If one is a king one is sovereign and ones will is done in the kingdom. God gave man dominion over all the earth and everything in it.
Therefore man is sovereign in the earth and it is man will that is being done in the earth.
Jesus said my kingdom is not of this world and John says the kingdom of this world will become the kingdoms of Christ. Brother until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of Christ God is not sovereign in the earth, that is why Jesus taught us to pray thy WILL be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Brother if God "decretive" will is done after the fashion you believe Jesus prayer is redundant.
I believe I gave you enough scripture showing that Jesus said that God has nothing to do with evil, you will either believe the reasoning of men concerning evil or believe Jesus Christ. I would adjure you to HEAR HIM as the Father commanded.
However you are correct we are going to disagree on this issue, but I would ask you to look at the scriptures I gave you and contiplate them before the Lord (not before other mens writtings) and see if your belief still stands.
Rodger I have read many such statement as this and I disagree with them all.
Because people cannot see how God can be sovereign and evil and sin to exist they make up stuff from their own reasoning to explain evil and sin in this earth.
However sovereignty and dominion are the same thing and they represent kingship. If one is a king one is sovereign and ones will is done in the kingdom. God gave man dominion over all the earth and everything in it.
Therefore man is sovereign in the earth and it is man will that is being done in the earth.
Jesus said my kingdom is not of this world and John says the kingdom of this world will become the kingdoms of Christ. Brother until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of Christ God is not sovereign in the earth, that is why Jesus taught us to pray thy WILL be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Brother if God "decretive" will is done after the fashion you believe Jesus prayer is redundant.
I believe I gave you enough scripture showing that Jesus said that God has nothing to do with evil, you will either believe the reasoning of men concerning evil or believe Jesus Christ. I would adjure you to HEAR HIM as the Father commanded.
However you are correct we are going to disagree on this issue, but I would ask you to look at the scriptures I gave you and contiplate them before the Lord (not before other mens writtings) and see if your belief still stands.
God bless
My belief, as noted in post #205 still stands.
All of us (including Adam and Eve) always, without exception, choose (reflexively, or, after due deliberation) in the direction of whatever is having the strongest influence on our mind as being the most persuasive reasons why we prefer one choice the most instead of another. In the split-second in time that we actually make a choice, it is not even possible that we could have chosen any differently.
Last edited by rodgertutt; 08-02-2011 at 10:59 AM..
I gave my view back in post #31. No one really commented on it though, so what can I do?
Free will is essentially a misnomer. Also I didn't think June's thread was going to turn into a massive free will debate... been there done that, most people don't change their mind due to people inherently using different definitions. I can understand the arguments of other people, but from how I see it they don't line up with observable fact and with what scripture says. C'est la vie...
The answer is simply this. We always choose towards the strongest influence (which includes our own internal desires and outside influences). Otherwise we wouldn't have chosen it.
Here was my original post about choosing and "free will":
--
The "free will" debate plays into this heavily. The problem is the definition of "free will" is often vague and changes frequently.
For example people will say free will is the ability to make a choice. And certainly we do make choices - no one is denying that. However that definition of free will is not very useful.
Cats make choices.
Computers make choices.
Mosquitoes make choices.
So when we talk about free will, are we suggesting that cats and mosquitoes have free will? Most people would not say that. Yet those things do make choices. Even computers make choices - they are very very fast at it. What we actually have to look at is how and why we make choices. Look at a computer. It makes choices according to its programming. So does it have "free will"? No, the computer is not free to do anything other than what it was programmed to do. Yet it still makes choices.
We could analyze the cat or the mosquito and come to some conclusions about why they make choices. The mosquito is attracted to certain light patterns and the warmth of human skin, so it chooses to move a certain way. It is acting and choosing according to its nature. Likewise with a cat, although its instincts are perhaps more advanced than a mosquito.
So then we come to humans. Do we have a free will? Certainly we make choices. But why do we make those choices? If you honestly sit down and think about this, you will see that every choice we make is impacted by influences that are outside our control: desires, circumstances, environment, and experiences.
You might say I can choose to not eat cheese because I don't like it. And that's true, you are completely able to make that choice. You could also choose to eat cheese in spite of the fact that you hate the taste of it.
But what you are not able to do, is to choose to like cheese, when you don't actually like cheese. You cannot choose your desires.
Circumstances happen that you have no control over that cause you to choose a certain action. You had no freedom in whether the circumstance would happen or not, you were forced to react to it and make a choice. Likewise with environment. No one can choose where they were born, who their parents were - and that has a big impact in what you become. And experiences are just the sum of knowledge that you have learned. What you are exposed to and what you learn will affect your future decisions.
That was a bit long but what this all comes down is that we choose according to our nature. And there is nothing "free" about that in the sense of "free will".
So people will bring up the "free will" argument claiming that we make choices (therefore we must have free will) or we would be robots without free will, etc. But these are just red herrings. What we actually do is choose according to our nature, and our nature is affected by all the things around us, and the desires and gifts we have been given from birth.
All of us (including Adam and Eve) always, without exception, choose (reflexively, or, after due deliberation) in the direction of whatever is having the strongest influence on our mind as being the most persuasive reasons why we prefer one choice the most instead of another. In the split-second in time that we actually make a choice, it is not even possible that we could have chosen any differently.
Eek gad Roger you hardly had time to contiplate those scriptures I gave before the Lord.
Beleive as you will , but to me you jumped from one error to another and just as you could not see UR for a time because of the writings of men you cannot see God has NOTHING to do with evil because of the writings of men.
HEAR HIM brother and put the writings of men aside.
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God's decretive and preceptive wills
The fallacy of "free" will
"Free" will is essentially a misnomer
