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I understand that perfectly...it's insidious indoctrination at it finest...but, how does one help someone step away from it and see the message with fresh eyes????
Hi Christy,
They may indeed be able to see it if you continue to point out to them that other groups say the exact same thing. Extremist Muslims use the same approach: it's our way or perish.
People with this type of conviction don't reconsider after the first discussion. It takes repeat discussions to get them to reflect. Show them how Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses and many others all have the same approach. Hold up the mirror.
Hi Christy,
They may indeed be able to see it if you continue to point out to them that other groups say the exact same thing. Extremist Muslims use the same approach: it's our way or perish.
People with this type of conviction don't reconsider after the first discussion. It takes repeat discussions to get them to reflect. Show them how Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses and many others all have the same approach. Hold up the mirror.
Blessings,
Brian
Yes. But something is either true or it is not.
When Jesus said in John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me", He was either lying, or He was telling the truth. I don't know if many have opted to just say He was crazy, but the bottom line is that His statement is either true or it is not.
There may be some consistency within the Scriptures of various religions regarding moral issues, such as lying, stealing, murder, homosexuality, etc...
But the ultimate message will be different. Christianity may well be the only religious system that does not base itself on man's good works outweighing his bad works to finally get him right with God.
In fact, it renders man totally helpless on his own before God, and tells us that we need to be saved through Jesus Christ to be made right with God.
This bothers a lot of people, as we tend to want to think we're really pretty decent people, and that God will see it that way, as well.
I'll stop here to avoid venturing too far off topic.
But the ultimate message will be different. Christianity may well be the only religious system that does not base itself on man's good works outweighing his bad works to finally get him right with God.
In fact, it renders man totally helpless on his own before God, and tells us that we need to be saved through Jesus Christ to be made right with God.
According to some Christians, anyone who does hold to this belief of working to be made right with God is damned to hell. If this is your understanding, can you explain why God would hold it against someone that they do not understand his merciful nature, or how exactly salvation works (according to you) and thus find them worthy of eternal punishment?
Quote:
This bothers a lot of people, as we tend to want to think we're really pretty decent people, and that God will see it that way, as well.
I think that, for most people, what really bothers them about the Christian message is that it is so completely contradictory to believe that a God of love and mercy would damn people to eternal hell for being human and making mistakes. So, their reaction is simply to reject the Christian message out of hand, which seems completely reasonable.
I was checking out the news this morning and couldn't help but be drawn to this article since I am definitely of those who do not read the bible literally. I find that it is those who do who are the most unreasonable people on the planet. I cannot understand why fundamentalists insist that others read the bible literally or, like a history book (as the article points out) to be considered "of the faith". The fact is, fundamentalist believers despise those who do not read the bible as they do --- a literal word-for-word interpretation of "face value". Fundamentalists do not understand nuance nor the various devises of language used in scripture.
They key to reading the Bible is to use the standards of Hermanuetics, which is the ability to properly understand what the Bible is saying...whether being allegorical/literal/etc... because the Bible speaks in all of these ways. Having a Bible with a good scholarly Commentary at the bottom of each page such as the NIV Life Application Bible and others...will allow the Reader to properly discern what is being said / how to take it. But the Bible DOES speak literally such as how God created the entire Universe in Genesis 1 and how sin entered the world in Genesis 2 . Other literal examples would be the many scientific processes mentioned in the Old Testament written down some 3-4,000 years ago which modern science finally got around to confirming as actual fact. The Bible can be believed as a credible scientific, historic, archeological , pyschology source of factual information and in fact, has never been proven wrong despite the relentless attempts from its (God rejecting) Critics.
Hi Christy,
They may indeed be able to see it if you continue to point out to them that other groups say the exact same thing. Extremist Muslims use the same approach: it's our way or perish.
People with this type of conviction don't reconsider after the first discussion. It takes repeat discussions to get them to reflect. Show them how Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses and many others all have the same approach. Hold up the mirror.
Blessings,
Brian
I find it pretty easy to hold up the mirror...it's getting people to actually look into it and reflect on what they see is the problem.
I don't want people to believe what I tell them...that is just replacing one belief for another. I would like them to actually look WITHIN themselves and reflect on what it is they are currently believing in to see if it is correct or needs adjustment...to actually take the time to be still and to still their minds so the spirit can speak to them...I believe the Quakers do this all the time.
They key to reading the Bible is to use the standards of Hermanuetics, which is the ability to properly understand what the Bible is saying...whether being allegorical/literal/etc... because the Bible speaks in all of these ways. Having a Bible with a good scholarly Commentary at the bottom of each page such as the NIV Life Application Bible and others...will allow the Reader to properly discern what is being said / how to take it. But the Bible DOES speak literally such as how God created the entire Universe in Genesis 1 and how sin entered the world in Genesis 2 . Other literal examples would be the many scientific processes mentioned in the Old Testament written down some 3-4,000 years ago which modern science finally got around to confirming as actual fact. The Bible can be believed as a credible scientific, historic, archeological , pyschology source of factual information and in fact, has never been proven wrong despite the relentless attempts from its (God rejecting) Critics.
Commentary is nothing more than another "mans" opinion about what it says...it is their interpretation...you do understand that, don't you??? It is the spirit WITHIN that we should be listening to to guide us into ALL TRUTH!!!
BTW...the bible doesn't have much credibility as a scientific, historic, archeological, etc. book of factual information and has been proven wrong over and over again...it is full of inconsistencies and blatant contradictions but that is what happens when man is involved in the writing. This is why we need the spirit to help us discover and discern the true spiritual messages from all the man made minutia located within it.
Commentary is nothing more than another "mans" opinion about what it says...it is their interpretation...you do understand that, don't you??? It is the spirit WITHIN that we should be listening to to guide us into ALL TRUTH!!!
BTW...the bible doesn't have much credibility as a scientific, historic, archeological, etc. book of factual information and has been proven wrong over and over again...it is full of inconsistencies and blatant contradictions but that is what happens when man is involved in the writing. This is why we need the spirit to help us discover and discern the true spiritual messages from all the man made minutia located within it.
Then by your own logic, we shouldnt consider ANY literary work whether it be a scholarly BIble Commentary , the Webster Dictionary, Cesaers Gallic Wars, etc...since they are only mans opinion . No...we cannot always trust 'the Spirit within' because oftentimes that Spirit is not of God and so we can be led astray -- the one solid truth source we CAN rely upon is the Word of God which is inspired by an infinite infallable person (God the Creator who cannot lie) and handed down to very holy devouted Men of God who would rather die than represent God fraudulently.
Your speculation about the Bible being non credible in the areas of science, history, and archeology tells us that youve never seriously put the Bible to the test .. and is only your apriori-philosophical bias for whatever personal motive that may be. Your absence of giving any specific examples of 'Bible mistakes' confirms this. As for science, The BIble got it right long before Modern Science finally got around to confirming it as absolute truth ; such examples are : The earth is a sphere/round , the earth freefloats in space, each star is different, light moves, air has weight, ocean floors contain deep mountains and valleys, oceans contain springs, the Hydrological cycle , atomic disentegration, and many others. Ergo, I would appeal to you to do some proper research before you make absolute statements in an effort to make us believe your personal opinions and prejudices. Heres a good place to start : www.impactapologetics.com .
I rarely agree with you but on this I will. One either believes the Bible or one doesn't. If one is going to decide that one thing is true but another thing isn't, what process is going to be used to decide?
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlemur
There are different ways to interpret Scripture based on the passages being read. One is literally such as referencing Jesus' ministry years, Pauls' travels throughout different regions or the history of the Israelites. Then there are many passages that need to be read figuratively such "if your eye sins, pluck it out". Certainly the Bible is not suggesting for someone to do that.
So how are you deciding that your Bible is NOT telling you to pluck your eyes out but it IS telling you that homosexuality is a 'sin'? What process are you using to decide that one is literal and the other isn't. Is the process of decision going to be based solely on what the individual likes or dislikes? How does it work? Does one say 'I don't want to pluck my eye out so I'm going to decide that THAT is not literal..... but as I'm not homosexual and think that homosexuality is disgusting I'm going to decide that THAT must be taken literally'?
According to some Christians, anyone who does hold to this belief of working to be made right with God is damned to hell. If this is your understanding, can you explain why God would hold it against someone that they do not understand his merciful nature, or how exactly salvation works (according to you) and thus find them worthy of eternal punishment?
I think that, for most people, what really bothers them about the Christian message is that it is so completely contradictory to believe that a God of love and mercy would damn people to eternal hell for being human and making mistakes. So, their reaction is simply to reject the Christian message out of hand, which seems completely reasonable.
I'm not quite certain of what you are referring to in your reference to "working to be made right with God". That would not be anything that I would ever suggest. That's the issue. Most religious systems I am aware of seem to hold this premise...that man can work his way to God.
If it were left up to us to decide, we would probably believe that our good works outweighed or bad works, and that God would be OK with that. But the Bible will not allow that. In fact, we are told in James 2:10 that "...whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
That's why we need a Savior. Man cannot come to God through his own merit. We have failed, and we need Christ to "make it right" for us.
You're correct when you say that it seems completely reasonable for man to reject this message. No one, by nature, will want to hear this message. I would much rather believe that I am OK as I am, and God would see it that way, as well.
And as far as rejection of the Christian message, we are already told in Scripture that "the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned". (1 Cor 2:14)
Man, by nature, will not receive spiritual truth unless God divinely reveals it to him. The idea of man's heart being "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked" is something man refuses to accept.
That's why God talks of giving a "new heart" and putting His Spirit within the individual who will receive this message. Outside of God's sovereign intervention on our behalf, we will not receive this truth.
I truly don't feel that the opposition to the Gospel message that we read about in the book of Acts, for example, would have been so extreme if people were simply told that God loved them. Maybe hearing about Jesus in any light would have turned them off...but the biblical Gospel message tells me I cannot stand before a Holy God without Christ on my behalf...without His atoning work on my behalf.
Certainly there are a number of things that can be addressed in a thread such as this one.
But we can at least start with what we know, and then proceed. In 2 Timothy 3:16 we read, "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness". Furthermore, we can consider the preceding verse, where Paul tells Timothy that "from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus".
This much we can know...that the whole Bible is the Word of God, and that it is through God's Word that one comes to saving faith in Jesus Christ.
I look forward to sharing more as the dialogue continues.
Thanks.
RESPONSE:
First of all, the Pastorals (Timothy and Titus) are not considered to have been written by Paul who died in 64 AD.
The first written book of the New Testament was that of Mark writing about 70 A.D.
Since Paul himself had to have written before 64 AD, then there was yet no scriptures referring to faith in Jesus Christ.
That's a pretty good reason to believe that Timothy had to have been written much later.
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