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Old 08-09-2011, 10:35 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
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I want to make an important distinction about some of us Universalists. Some claim to believe in Universal Restoration. I don't believe in such. I don't believe Adam was ever PERFECT. I don't believe the perfection of Adam has yet completed. I believe the work of perfection has been started but just not finished.

I know many will disagree with that. But if Adam were perfect then being perfect is insignificant if what is perfect can become imperfect.

So there is never a RESTORATION of what is perfect but rather a climax of the perfect work at arriving to the point of perfection in all.
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Old 08-09-2011, 11:39 AM
 
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In that context I agree with you. I have looked at it a bit differently, as we come out of perfection, it is not necessarily that we as humans had a perfect beginning, it is that were were once in a different form residing perfectly with God.
We were created to this form from perfection and must one day return because we are still a part of God and God can never be incomplete, but that return cannot happen until we are restored to a state of perfection.
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Old 08-09-2011, 01:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
In that context I agree with you. I have looked at it a bit differently, as we come out of perfection, it is not necessarily that we as humans had a perfect beginning, it is that were were once in a different form residing perfectly with God.
We were created to this form from perfection and must one day return because we are still a part of God and God can never be incomplete, but that return cannot happen until we are restored to a state of perfection.
I like that Phazelwood. Tried to rep you again.

Would like to add and I know your aware of it, getting restored hurts, both physically and mentally.
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Old 08-09-2011, 08:32 PM
 
Location: Tucson, Arizona
987 posts, read 909,140 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
I want to make an important distinction about some of us Universalists. Some claim to believe in Universal Restoration. I don't believe in such. I don't believe Adam was ever PERFECT. I don't believe the perfection of Adam has yet completed. I believe the work of perfection has been started but just not finished.

I know many will disagree with that. But if Adam were perfect then being perfect is insignificant if what is perfect can become imperfect.

So there is never a RESTORATION of what is perfect but rather a climax of the perfect work at arriving to the point of perfection in all.
I agree with you trettep. I don't believe that man was ever finished, but that we are being created and heading toward perfection through HIS work. But I do believe that we are restored in the sense that Adam once had a closer and more personal walk with the Father, yet I believe it goes beyond restoration in that we will all be the finished product that the Father envisioned in the beginning and sees in us now.
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Old 08-09-2011, 09:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ScarletWren View Post
I agree with you trettep. I don't believe that man was ever finished, but that we are being created and heading toward perfection through HIS work. But I do believe that we are restored in the sense that Adam once had a closer and more personal walk with the Father, yet I believe it goes beyond restoration in that we will all be the finished product that the Father envisioned in the beginning and sees in us now.
I like the way you worded this and I see it the same way.
peace,
sparrow
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Old 08-10-2011, 08:01 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Originally Posted by ScarletWren View Post
I agree with you trettep. I don't believe that man was ever finished, but that we are being created and heading toward perfection through HIS work. But I do believe that we are restored in the sense that Adam once had a closer and more personal walk with the Father, yet I believe it goes beyond restoration in that we will all be the finished product that the Father envisioned in the beginning and sees in us now.
I am not so sure that is true that Adam once had a closer relationship. Let me put this way; if I now know what evil is, then Good is that much better. So Adam, learned much more about God after he ate of the forbidden fruit then what he knew before it. Now he knows a much more wonderful God than before.
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Old 08-10-2011, 08:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by trettep View Post
I want to make an important distinction about some of us Universalists. Some claim to believe in Universal Restoration. I don't believe in such. I don't believe Adam was ever PERFECT. I don't believe the perfection of Adam has yet completed. I believe the work of perfection has been started but just not finished.

I know many will disagree with that. But if Adam were perfect then being perfect is insignificant if what is perfect can become imperfect.

So there is never a RESTORATION of what is perfect but rather a climax of the perfect work at arriving to the point of perfection in all.
I see it as Adam was perfect in that he was perfectly innocent until his "fall from grace" ... But it is Gods purpose to make us perfectly righteous in Christ.

There is a difference between someone who is innocent and someone who is righteous. To be innocent is to not even know good and evil, while righteousness is knowing good and evil and doing what is good.

We are perfected in righteousness because of the work of Christ on the cross and in our lives. Eventually we will put on incorruption, and then we will know God even as we are now known by him.

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 08-10-2011 at 09:04 PM..
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Old 08-10-2011, 08:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ScarletWren View Post
I agree with you trettep. I don't believe that man was ever finished, but that we are being created and heading toward perfection through HIS work. But I do believe that we are restored in the sense that Adam once had a closer and more personal walk with the Father, yet I believe it goes beyond restoration in that we will all be the finished product that the Father envisioned in the beginning and sees in us now.
Right, what is being restored is not Adams perfect state of innocence, but it is the spiritual relationship between those who are in Adam with God through the second Adam, Christ. We change, but the grace is the same; the universal balance between God and creation is what is restored. It is from him that all things come and to him they all finally must return, so that he is all and in all.
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Old 08-10-2011, 08:46 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
I see it as Adam was perfect in that he was perfectly innocent until his "fall from grace" ... But it is Gods purpose to make us perfectly righteous in Christ.

There is a difference between someone who is innocent and someone who is righteous. To be innocent is to not even know good and evil, while righteousness is knowing good and evil and doing what is good.

Were are perfected in righteousness because of the work of Christ on the cross and in our lives. Eventually we will put on incorruptible, and then we will know God even as we are now known by him.
Great post Ironmaw. I agree with that perspective of innocence.
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Old 08-10-2011, 09:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Great post Ironmaw. I agree with that perspective of innocence.

I do too.
Innocence to me, equals ignorance.
Ignorance is not bliss.
Which is why we are all here learning what love really is by us being "subjected" (by God) to this "futility/frustration" (walking this path of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil, or in more clearer terms love and non-love.
Or another way to say it, Christ and Anti-Christ.

This "fall" was planned from the start.
Someone mentioned in another thread "Adam's failure"... I dont see it that way at all. I see it as something that was put into place that was inevitably going to happen. A choice to "disobey", but what is it to "disobey"?? You can't know until you actually do it. Just like we can't fully KNOW Love without experiencing that which is OPPOSED to Love.
What happened with Adam was supposed to happen.

Does non-love (or evil) have to last forever in order for us to always KNOW what Love is?? OF COURSE NOT! A million times, NO!!
However our KNOWLEDGE will last forever. Huge difference.
Non-love will one day be OBSOLETE! Because Love conquers all.
When we all one day are viewing the BIG PICTURE of just how non-love destroys, but it cannot destroy fully.... because Love is infinitely more powerful. There is no evil done, that cannot be UN-done by LOVE.
That is truth. That is the power of love.
That is what we are here to learn.
We're all in this together.
What affects one, affects all.... and one day we're finally going to get it.
Love God.
Love your neighbor.

I see things in circles. I always have since I was a little kid. The seasons, it's all a circle, like a medicine wheel. We will come full circle. Back home. Like we've been on a journey and we are going to come back home far wiser than when we left.
God is doing a good work in each and everyone of us.


It's late and I'm rambling.
let me shut up now.

peace ya'll...
sparrow
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