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Old 09-05-2011, 11:58 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,890,162 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
But this is where you are emphatically mistaken, Twin ... it IS a matter of intepretation, like it or not (interpretation AND translations of the original languages). Of course I understand completely what you believe to be true in all of this. But I aboslutely stand by what I said in an earlier post ... you interpret passages the way you do because you view all of the bible through the lens of an ET perspective. I did once too and I get it and I can appreciate that you sincerely believe you are being true to God by accepting without reservation what you have been taught to believe about ET.

However, my perspective is different now and I've explained it enough times that you know what it is (unless you're not reading my posts). One or both of us is wrong about God's plan for ALL ... but that doesn't change the fact that I TRUST GOD and I say YES LORD. It doesn't change the fact that although we do not agree on what God's plan is, we both are trusting God to carry it out, as are all the Christians who are posting in this thread. It's disingenuous of you to imply otherwise ... can you see that?
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Again, Twin, it's not the either/or you're making it out to be. I believe what is being said but I differ completely with YOU about what it really is that's being said. The message I believe is not anti-Christ although it is anti-ET.

I understand the Christ message to be, in a nutshell, that GOD SAVES. I know you believe God saves, too, Twin. However imo, you QUALIFY that belief by saying "but not everyone"... You sincerely believe that. I sincerely believe you are wrong. But we BOTH believe GOD SAVES.
Yes we both believe that God saves...but he only saves those who confess it. That is the difference between objective vs the subjective.

Objectively God has pronounced everybodies sins forgiven. Those who reject that pronouncement will be declared a liar. That person has not applied the objective announcement subjectively.

Because of that John 3:36 remains. Offering the alternative to the judgement is to offer a different gospel to the rejector per God's will and pleasure.
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Old 09-05-2011, 12:02 PM
 
15,287 posts, read 7,676,214 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
When Jesus specifically repeats himself that there will be many not entering and will not be able to do so is to warn that "God's LOVE, God's Spirit, mercy, righteousness, judgments, power, promises, plan, purpose, guidance, etc., etc." is not open ended indefinitely.

For to say "oh there's consequences....but just for a while, at some point you'll enter" is being wantonly against Jesus who is serious about "will never enter it" Matthew 18:3, Mark 10:15, Luke 18:17

So yes... people are saying "No Lord, I don't believe it" and their attitude is like that of the group of Jews who make accusational questions.
Matt 18:3 `Verily I say to you, if ye may not be turned and become as the children, ye may not enter into the reign of the heavens;"

Mk 10:15 "verily I say to you, whoever may not receive the reign of God, as a child -- he may not enter into it;"

Lk 18:17 "verily I say to you, Whoever may not receive the reign of God as a little child, may not enter into it."

Two ways to look at this, as I see it, Twin. First it says, "ye may not enter into/receive the REIGN of the heavens/God. There is indication in the Bible that there is a firstfruit company who will actually "reign" with Christ (which means they will have the privelege of SERVING with him). That could mean in the here and now, it could mean in the hereafter, it could mean both ... I don't know. But any way you slice it, if one is REIGNING/SERVING, that generally means that there are others who AREN'T reigning and who are BEING SERVED (those who are not the "firstfruits", those who enter the kingdom later).

But, even if you don't see it that way regarding the "reign", the other point is that the passage does not say that anyone will NEVER become as children and enter. You are adding that to it. And I stand by my opinion (based on personal experience) that the REASON you read the word "never" into those passages is because you read the Bible through an ET perspective/lens.
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Old 09-05-2011, 12:08 PM
 
15,287 posts, read 7,676,214 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Yes we both believe that God saves...but he only saves those who confess it. That is the difference between objective vs the subjective.

Objectively God has pronounced everybodies sins forgiven. Those who reject that pronouncement will be declared a liar. That person has not applied the objective announcement subjectively.

Because of that John 3:36 remains. Offering the alternative to the judgement is to offer a different gospel to the rejector per God's will and pleasure.
I agree with you! I believe that until one confesses faith (in other words, experiences living in obedience to God's Spirit at work in them) they are not going to subjectively experience salvation. But I further believe that God promises that this will happen for ALL people.
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Old 09-05-2011, 12:10 PM
 
15,287 posts, read 7,676,214 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Matt 18:3 `Verily I say to you, if ye may not be turned and become as the children, ye may not enter into the reign of the heavens;"

Mk 10:15 "verily I say to you, whoever may not receive the reign of God, as a child -- he may not enter into it;"

Lk 18:17 "verily I say to you, Whoever may not receive the reign of God as a little child, may not enter into it."
Hey, as a total aside to our conversation Twin, what do you understand "as a child" to mean? I've heard various ideas about that and have had my own, but I'm not sure any of them have totally hit the mark for me.
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Old 09-05-2011, 12:10 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,890,162 times
Reputation: 1302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Matt 18:3 `Verily I say to you, if ye may not be turned and become as the children, ye may not enter into the reign of the heavens;"

Mk 10:15 "verily I say to you, whoever may not receive the reign of God, as a child -- he may not enter into it;"

Lk 18:17 "verily I say to you, Whoever may not receive the reign of God as a little child, may not enter into it."

Two ways to look at this, as I see it, Twin. First it says, "ye may not enter into/receive the REIGN of the heavens/God. There is indication in the Bible that there is a firstfruit company who will actually "reign" with Christ (which means they will have the privelege of SERVING with him). That could mean in the here and now, it could mean in the hereafter, it could mean both ... I don't know. But any way you slice it, if one is REIGNING/SERVING, that generally means that there are others who AREN'T reigning and who are BEING SERVED (those who are not the "firstfruits", those who enter the kingdom later).

But, even if you don't see it that way regarding the "reign", the other point is that the passage does not say that anyone will NEVER become as children and enter. You are adding that to it. And I stand by my opinion (based on personal experience) that the REASON you read the word "never" into those passages is because you read the Bible through an ET perspective/lens.
The reason for seeing it through "eternal lenses" because life in heaven is eternal.

So when Jesus talks about eternal life with God, is that anti-christ to come to believe that will be a temporary state of happiness \ existance?
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Old 09-05-2011, 12:21 PM
 
15,287 posts, read 7,676,214 times
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Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
The reason for seeing it through "eternal lenses" because life in heaven is eternal.

So when Jesus talks about eternal life with God, is that anti-christ to come to believe that will be a temporary state of happiness \ existance?

"Eternal (aionios/pertaining to the age) life" as described in the bible is knowing God and the one whom God sent. Or, as it is explained in 1 Jn 5, understanding that what Jesus said was true... that we ARE in God. It's about coming to full subjective realization, experience, recognition that our salvation has been accomplished objectively ( as you said). GOD SAVES and we are the benefactors of that.

That's certainly not an anti-Christ (or anti-biblical) understanding.
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Old 09-05-2011, 12:29 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,890,162 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Hey, as a total aside to our conversation Twin, what do you understand "as a child" to mean? I've heard various ideas about that and have had my own, but I'm not sure any of them have totally hit the mark for me.
This is how I understand it .....
think back to when you where a child (or if you have children) at one point in time one didn't question the parents. They were totally dependent of the wisdom\authority of the parents and were accepting of it.

So when the parent warned ... the child didn't questioned it.
So when the parent showed love ... the child didn't questioned it.
A child's survival is totally dependent on the parents and is content with that.
A child also has no cares\worries about the world or about wealth\possessions.

That is why Jesus says what he does:
An encouragement for faith like a child
Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear." ....


A warning of a unchild like faith:
"The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful."

The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away
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Old 09-05-2011, 12:36 PM
 
3,337 posts, read 2,504,086 times
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Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Fortunately, no one in this thread is promoting the idea that there are not consequences. People simply disagree (vehemently) on what those consequences are, based on their understanding of God's nature, and his purpose for humanity. As you said, it's about overcoming sin/non-love and embracing godliness/LOVE. Some believe that God's purpose is for ALL of us to do that, and that he will/has ensured that will be accomplished in everyone. Some don't.
Oh! I wasn't seeing that.

How about this;
So some don't believe in spirit death for those that Blaspheme against the Holy Spirit?

THe unforgivable sin.
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Old 09-05-2011, 12:44 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,890,162 times
Reputation: 1302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
"Eternal (aionios/pertaining to the age) life" as described in the bible is knowing God and the one whom God sent. Or, as it is explained in 1 Jn 5, understanding that what Jesus said was true... that we ARE in God. It's about coming to full subjective realization, experience, recognition that our salvation has been accomplished objectively ( as you said). GOD SAVES and we are the benefactors of that.

That's certainly not an anti-Christ (or anti-biblical) understanding.
We can only benefit when it becomes subjective ... salvation and subsequently life with God in heaven (for what ever term one chooses to describe that existance) the blood of Christ (faith) must be a possession for one to be clothed with.

Nowhere will you read one can use anybody's alternative ...come to stand before God after death ... and being offered it anyway because of circumstances. Read Matthew 22:11-13

Jesus' spoke the truth in Matthew 22:11-13 the alternative is an instead.

The anti-christ message goes against the King who has the right not to show love.
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Old 09-05-2011, 01:08 PM
 
18,349 posts, read 9,075,748 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
The anti-christ message goes against the King who has the right not to show love.
WHAT?
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