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Why do you assume, or what evidence do you have, that coming to faith must happen in this lifetime? If you believe that God is not just the God of this age, but also of the age to come, why do you limit his saving power only to this age?
What biblical evidence speaks to the contrary?
The insistence comes from the understanding of the fact that God IS love, that love NEVER fails, that God's mercy NEVER ends, that God is not holding anyone's sins against them, that every knee will bow, that God desires all to be saved, that Christ is the Savior of the world, as well as understanding that the purpose of God's judgments are LOVING, and the purpose of those judgments are intended to teach humanity righteousness. I could go on with biblical references, but I think you get the point.
So, again, I ask you or any ETer, what evidence d0 YOU have that coming to faith MUST happen in this lifetime only? Why do you limit your God to working in the hearts of people in this age (lifetime) ONLY, if you believe that another age (life) continues after this one?
We can speak at greater length concerning this. But right now I simply have to wonder how it could even be possible that a person could "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" after he/she has died.
How does one come to a saving faith in Christ after death? This becomes the problem in thinking that one can be saved after death. I believe that to believe otherwise is to try and uphold the idea that God is love and in His love He will save everyone.
I admire such thinking; but if the Bible is to be our reference source or authority in determining these matters, I'm afraid we run into a problem if we suggest that one can still become saved, even if he dies in unbelief.
We can speak at greater length concerning this. But right now I simply have to wonder how it could even be possible that a person could "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" after he/she has died.
How does one come to a saving faith in Christ after death? This becomes the problem in thinking that one can be saved after death. I believe that to believe otherwise is to try and uphold the idea that God is love and in His love He will save everyone.
I admire such thinking; but if the Bible is to be our reference source or authority in determining these matters, I'm afraid we run into a problem if we suggest that one can still become saved, even if he dies in unbelief.
Why? What magically happens at death that precludes one from believing? Or, more importantly, what magically happens at death that precludes God from LOVING and acting according to His nature? You have not yet provided your reasoning behind this that I know of.
In Romans 10:17, the "word" is ρηματος *a noun (genitive singular neuter) or
rhema: *an utterance (individually, collectively or specially); by implication, a matter or topic (especially of narration, command or dispute); with a negative naught whatever. According to Strongs anyway...
So faith comes by HEARING (the Greek has two ακοη for emphasis) and yet you think it means the bible?
No... It means the message of god, specifically the one preached by Christ. Unfortunately none of us are able to hear that again unless through other sources. I prefer to hear the word of god personally, you prefer a 2000 year old book. But you can't then say someone else is wrong about what god says to them if it contradicts what you've gathered from the book..
If the bible contradicts what I KNOW of god and christs gospel... It must be a translation, interpretation, or corruption issue.... It's been 2000 years!
What do you trust more. Your own knowledge of your own god or the writings of inspired men 2000 years ago.
Shouldn't a personal relationship with a creator give you some insight into what he would or wouldn't do? Like burn his creatures forever for not uttering an allegiance in the right frame of time?
Excellent study, kat . . . as usual.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAA2310
Should the use of "rhema" here in the Greek really give us any problem? This is the same Greek found in the reference I made to 1 Peter 1:25, "But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you".
The Greek word "rhema" is used in both cases here. You may appreciate the fact that in Gal 5:14, ("For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself"), the Greek for "word" is also 'rhema'.
I believe your offering here is an honest one, but I don't see that it really causes a problem or issue with Romans 10:17.
Since "rhema" is used in the Gospels where we are told that man does not live by bread, alone, but by every word of God; I feel that we are on safe ground in applying the hearing of the word of God unto salvation as pertaining to the Bible.
Let's note also 2 Tim 3:15
...and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Notice it says the "holy scriptures" (gramma = written/letter) . . . it doesn't say "word of God" (rhema = utterance) that gives you faith in Christ . . . because the OT tells us OF Christ and gives us HopeIN (en . . . not eis) Christ. We are admonished to "believe ON" (eis) Christ . . . not merely IN (en) Christ. The greek "en" refers to intellectual knowledge . . . the Greek "eis" refers to an inner acceptance and adoption. The OT is divinely inspired but it is NOT the word of God. Christ did not "utter" it.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 09-03-2011 at 08:18 AM..
Why? What magically happens at death that precludes one from believing? Or, more importantly, what magically happens at death that precludes God from LOVING and acting according to His nature? You have not yet provided your reasoning behind this that I know of.
Nothing.
Death is the result of not overcoming sin, or laying your life down for the glory of God.
The only real difference is that you lose your body. For a season, until a new one is given, based on your Christ-like-ness, or lack there of.
Or if judgement dictates, you give up your spirit to the 2nd death. Which is a mercy for the perpetually evil and wicked.
Just because there is forgiveness, doesn't mean there isn't accountability.
You inherit the kingdom that you obey (or that you are like). How could it be any different.
There are infinite kingdoms, and infinite glories...
Death is the result of not overcoming sin, or laying your life down for the glory of God.
The only real difference is that you lose your body. For a season, until a new one is given, based on your Christ-like-ness, or lack there of.
Or if judgement dictates, you give up your spirit to the 2nd death. Which is a mercy for the perpetually evil and wicked.
Just because there is forgiveness, doesn't mean there isn't accountability.
You inherit the kingdom that you obey (or that you are like). How could it be any different.
There are infinite kingdoms, and infinite glories...
Honestly, I'm not understanding your point ... you say that physical death changes nothing, but then you seem to continue by saying that once one has died physically, God cannot further act in a person's heart to bring them to desire being obedient to his Kingdom/Love? If this is your stance, what evidence do you have to support it?
I wonder why there is this insistence that salvation can occur after one has died, given all the biblical information that speaks to the contrary.
Why? To keep people from coming to faith. That is the mission of Satan. As long as they can convince people that there is salvation after death, many will see no reason to come to faith.
Why do you assume, or what evidence do you have, that coming to faith must happen in this lifetime? If you believe that God is not just the God of this age, but also of the age to come, why do you limit his saving power only to this age?
Twin Spin provided numerous verses to prove it, and I have provided proof, but you keep coming back to ask again.
Do you think that Jesus came here to instruct the living about something that would happen to them after death whether they want it or not? What would be the point?
Heb 9:27 man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment
Yes... Many people distrust their own thoughts about god in lieu of a god described by primitive men. It shows a lack of trust in god and themselves.
There is no great lake of punishing fire for sinners. I like how the author of Love Wins puts it: (I'm paraphrasing) our will is so free that whatever we do god loves us and grace abounds.
When your will conforms to God's will, then you experience salvation.
Not salvation from a burning lake of torture after death, salvation from calamity (destruction) and the reward of living LIFE more abundantly. Eternally abundant LIFE is possible through LOVE of self and others.
When we love others, we know god. Reading the bible doesn't give you abundant life, and it certainly shouldn't be worshipped or revered. It's man made.
Thanks for the rep! I'm out at the moment so here's a smiley...
Basically you are saying you are a believer in your own thoughts. You read the Bible and pick the verses you like, and dismiss the ones you do not like. You have no way of verifying that your thought are in line with God's thoughts, and therefore you are walking on very thin ice. Your comments prove that your thoughts are completely out of sync with the Bible, and you justify that by saying the Bible is wrong. Very thin ice indeed.
The Bible says absolutely nothing about salvation process after death. Here is a glimpse of what happens to people who claim that "salvation after death" is reality.
Matt 7: 23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Matt 13 37 “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
“As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.
John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.
Rev 20:12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
Twin Spin provided numerous verses to prove it, and I have provided proof, but you keep coming back to ask again.
Do you think that Jesus came here to instruct the living about something that would happen to them after death whether they want it or not? What would be the point?
Heb 9:27 man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment
The only passages that either of you have provided speak of judgment after death. You infer that because the judgment spoken of happens after physical death it leads to eternal torment. However, you have not provided evidence that explicity says that one must come to faith before physical death.
As has been said, it comes down to how one understands God's character. God IS love, and love never fails, God's mercy never ends, he is not counting people's sins against them. God is holy and his judgments teach righteousness.
As far as the point of Jesus instructing us as to the true nature of God ... not suire why you assume it would have no point in the here and now, simply because it will not change in the hereafter.
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