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Old 09-07-2011, 12:56 AM
 
Location: Canada
4,274 posts, read 1,665,157 times
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Quote:
The Catholic Church hasn't been a perfect organization, but their deposit of the faith is. If humans are involved, it's never perfect. No one is arguing that the Holy Spirit works through folks, but apparently we are not listening.

If you have children, how do you know that you know that what you are teaching them the way to salvation. If you compare the major church groups, they don't even agree on justification, let alone baptism or any other major topic. So who is right? The Holy Spirit is supposedly guiding every one of these Churches? How do you know that YOU are right?


When our spirit bares witness with His Spirit. When we love one another, then we will know we are His disciples.

Quote:
Question: What is the pillar and foundation of truth?


Christ.

Question: what is it we are commanded to teach?
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Old 09-07-2011, 12:59 AM
 
Location: Canada
4,274 posts, read 1,665,157 times
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August, I am tired, will respond to your post later, its way past my bed time.

God bless
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Old 09-07-2011, 10:41 AM
 
774 posts, read 319,215 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post

When our spirit bares witness with His Spirit. When we love one another, then we will know we are His disciples.



Christ.

Question: what is it we are commanded to teach?
Well, that would be unbiblical.

1 Timothy 3:14-15
14 I am writing you about these matters, although I hope to visit you soon.
15 But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.


Last edited by GoodToBeHome; 09-07-2011 at 10:54 AM..
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Old 09-07-2011, 11:00 AM
 
Location: Canada
4,274 posts, read 1,665,157 times
Reputation: 246
Quote:
The Catholic Church gave us the bible. Without it you would have nothing to pick and choose from. And you have no way of knowing if any of these lies by the scribes were incorporated into the Scriptures we have today anyway. I did read your link and I didn't see anything about Jesus saying anything was added to the law of Moses either. Post the verse from the NT for me.



Sorry but the Septuagint was in existence long before the RCC. So how is it you accredit the RCC with giving us the bible?

Does Jesus contradicting the laws written in the books of Moses tell you nothing? If you really cannot see this I can do nothing to change you mind. Facts are fact, you ignore them to your own destruction.




Quote:
The bottom line is that all Scripture we have today is inspired. There were lots of "scriptures" floating around and this is why the Church had to choose the canon in order to define which are authentic. This is just one function where the Church exercised its power to bind and loose.



Nonsense, in the link I gave you will see two examples were man has made an interpolation into the NT.
Sorry, but the church choose the canon bases solely on their own belief system, if they saw in a book something they did not like or understand the book disregarded. Case in point the first book of Enoch.

Quote:
Right. They were not given the authority to bind and loose and this is why they are divided.


How many time do I have to show you that ALL the apostles were given power to bind and lose. And beside that the catholic church was also divided, what happened there?



Quote:
Indeed, unity is found only in Christ and the Church he founded. Jesus isn't a polygamist; He only has ONE bride, and anyone can leave His Church but until Jesus comes for her she will always remain one with Him.


Yes He does only have one church, that being the catholic church, NOT the RCC which is just another denomination that splintered from the catholic church.

You do realise do you not that every denomination out there today has its origin in the catholic church. One being a splinter of another, that splinter getting split and so on and so on. The RCC and eastern orthodox just happen to be the first two splinters away from God true church which is the catholic church, which is NOT the same as the RCC.



Quote:
Because the Catholic Church has to keys of St. Peter. It was this Church that was first called Catholic. Even so, the Orthodox Church is still apostolic and like John Paul ll said our respective churches are like two lungs:


The catholic church and the RCC are NOT the same, until you admit this you will be confused about the true church of God.


Quote:
The Holy Spirit and Him alone DOES teach about Christ THROUGH THE CHURCH. why else would the Church be sent to "teach", brother? Jesus said that Holy Spirit would be sent to the apostles to call to rememrance everything "he said to them."


And as I said it is to get the ones being taught to grow up into the same maturity the teaches has. The Pope will NEVER do this that is why I know the Pope is just a man, some good, some bad, but just man all the same.


Quote:
Jesus told us: the tares are the children of the wicked one.


Correct: what are the children of the wicked one? And don't say tares.



Quote:
God cannot do evil, period, brother.


I totally agree, if you have followed any of my posts you will see I defend this point all the time



Quote:
I read your post on that link you provided where you say God's killing of men, women and children would be considered evil. So do you eliminate every book from the bible that contains these actions of God you consider evil?



You need to read the link again sis, I never mentioned anything about eliminating any book.
Look at the three conclusion I gave about those things.

Tell me sis when the Pope commanded people to go kill in the crusades was this killing according to God?

Quote:
Post your canon for me, pneuma.


My canon can be summed up in the words of Christ, anything but what He says is based on ignorance of the Father.


Quote:
I know. The pope is a bishop. And Scripture says that Christ's Church will have them. Does your church have bishops?


Already said my church is anywhere I bow my knee.

I said

Again I will state that when one teaches it is so that those being taught will come to the same maturity in Christ as the one who is teaching, this is something no pope will ever do.

You responded

Quote:
Again, brother, I've been on both sides where you haven't. So I have to say that you aren't qualified to makes this judgment.



Jesus state we are to be perfect as the Father is perfect, that we are to be one with the Father, Paul says we are come into unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

So as I follow Christ's words, it is not my judgement but His, so I am well able through Christ to make that judgement.





Quote:
Jesus said the Holy Spirit would be sent to His apostles so that they could teach truth, and He was. This is why the Church is still in existence today after 2000 years. If it sounds miraculous it's because it is - Thanks to the Holy Spirit. This is why we can trust the Church Jesus built.


Sorry but the Holy Spirit is given to all, not just Jesus' apostles. Which by the way if only given to the apostles that then excludes your popes as you pointed out they are only bishops.
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Old 09-07-2011, 11:02 AM
 
Location: Canada
4,274 posts, read 1,665,157 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodToBeHome View Post
Well, that would be unbiblical.

1 Timothy 3:14-15
14 I am writing you about these matters, although I hope to visit you soon.
15 But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.
So Christ being the foundation of truth is unbiblical?
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Old 09-07-2011, 11:21 AM
 
774 posts, read 319,215 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
So Christ being the foundation of truth is unbiblical?
I just showed you what the bible says. You are a true protestant. Pick and choose. Whatever fits. Throw away the rest.
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Old 09-07-2011, 01:48 PM
 
Location: Canada
4,274 posts, read 1,665,157 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodToBeHome View Post
I just showed you what the bible says. You are a true protestant. Pick and choose. Whatever fits. Throw away the rest.
Sorry no protestant here, and Jesus said He was the truth, building on any other then Christ is anti-christ.
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Old 09-07-2011, 02:09 PM
 
Location: NC
141 posts, read 56,958 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post


Sorry but the Septuagint was in existence long before the RCC. So how is it you accredit the RCC with giving us the bible?

Because the Church gave us the canon, penuma.

Does Jesus contradicting the laws written in the books of Moses tell you nothing? If you really cannot see this I can do nothing to change you mind. Facts are fact, you ignore them to your own destruction.

Give me some examples.







Nonsense, in the link I gave you will see two examples were man has made an interpolation into the NT.
Sorry, but the church choose the canon bases solely on their own belief system, if they saw in a book something they did not like or understand the book disregarded. Case in point the first book of Enoch.

Pneuma, post here the parts of your posts you want me to read.



How many time do I have to show you that ALL the apostles were given power to bind and lose.

Pneuma, I never disagreed with you that all the apostles had the authority to bind and loose. I said that they were not given the keys to the kingdom. Only Peter was as Scripture shows. And this is how one can know they are in Christ's Church.

"On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" Cyprian of Carthage (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251])

And beside that the catholic church was also divided, what happened there?

Like I said before, the Church can't help who leaves:

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 1 Jn 2:19



Yes He does only have one church, that being the catholic church, NOT the RCC which is just another denomination that splintered from the catholic church.

There is no "RCC", pneuma. "Roman Catholic church" is not a title of our Church. The church has always been called the "Catholic Church." It is the same Church that got its name from Scripture, worships like the apostles did, and that the Early Church Fathers wrote about.


You do realise do you not that every denomination out there today has its origin in the catholic church. One being a splinter of another, that splinter getting split and so on and so on. The RCC and eastern orthodox just happen to be the first two splinters away from God true church which is the catholic church, which is NOT the same as the RCC.


See above


The catholic church and the RCC are NOT the same, until you admit this you will be confused about the true church of God.

Yes it is. And hopefully one day you will learn this. It will be the biggest blessing in your life if you do, just like it is in mine.


And as I said it is to get the ones being taught to grow up into the same maturity the teaches has. The Pope will NEVER do this that is why I know the Pope is just a man, some good, some bad, but just man all the same.

The Bishops ARE our teachers, pneuma. The bible itself says this:.

"Take heed to yourselves and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the Church of God which he hath purchased with his own blood." Acts 20:28

Again, where are your bishops in your church? Jesus said there will be bishops in His.





Correct: what are the children of the wicked one? And don't say tares.

"What are the children of the wicked one"? You're confusing me, brother. And in your last post you said they weren't even children. Here is what you wrote:

"While what do you think the wheat and tares are sis, they ain't people they are the thoughts that people put into action."





I totally agree, if you have followed any of my posts you will see I defend this point all the time






You need to read the link again sis, I never mentioned anything about eliminating any book.
Look at the three conclusion I gave about those things.


Pneuma, could you please post your points from the thread you made? It's easier for me to follow you. Thanks!

Tell me sis when the Pope commanded people to go kill in the crusades was this killing according to God?

Would you defend your household from an intruder if it meant killing him?



My canon can be summed up in the words of Christ, anything but what He says is based on ignorance of the Father.

So I take this to mean you do not adhere to the OT at all? And which books in the NT do you hold to?



Already said my church is anywhere I bow my knee.

Yes I know, I use to be a member. It's the invisible spiritual church which no one can find if they do decide they want in. Like a city that sits on a hill right?. Wait, that sounds more like... the Vatican.

I said

Again I will state that when one teaches it is so that those being taught will come to the same maturity in Christ as the one who is teaching, this is something no pope will ever do.


You responded




Jesus state we are to be perfect as the Father is perfect, that we are to be one with the Father, Paul says we are come into unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

So as I follow Christ's words, it is not my judgement but His, so I am well able through Christ to make that judgement.

Sorry, brother, but your words do not line up with Christ's description of His Church in Scripture.






Sorry but the Holy Spirit is given to all, not just Jesus' apostles. Which by the way if only given to the apostles that then excludes your popes as you pointed out they are only bishops.

I never said the Holy Spirit wasn't given to all. He is our comforter. I said He was sent only to the apostles to reveal all truth. This is in Scripture as Jesus was talking only to the 12 When he said this. We too can know all truth by hearing the Church, which is the pillar and foundation of truth, as GoodtobeHome said.

Again, why do you think the church was sent to teach in the first place if we were each individually to be mystically taught by the Holy Spirit? You've never answered this.

God bless and have a nice day, pneuma!

augusta


PS sorry for any typos, brother. I don't feel like editing.
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Old 09-07-2011, 09:43 PM
 
Location: Canada
4,274 posts, read 1,665,157 times
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Quote:
Because the Church gave us the canon, penuma.


Sorry but the church did not give us the Septuagint. It was there BEFORE the church.

Quote:
Give me some examples.


I already have, read the link, Jesus contradicted what the lying pen of the scribes added to the law of Moses.

Quote:
Pneuma, post here the parts of your posts you want me to read.


Written in the book of the Law of Moses we read
Numbers 30:2
2 If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.

Deuteronomy 23:21
21 When thou shalt vow a vow unto the LORD thy God, thou shalt not slack to pay it: for the LORD thy God will surely require it of thee; and it would be sin in thee.


However, according to Jesus we are not to swear at all, but let our communication be yea, yea, or nay, nay.
Matthew 5:33-37
33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all;neither by heaven; for it is Godís throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

Jesusí words are a total contradiction to what is written in Numbers 30:2 and Deuteronomy 23:21.

A couple of things to take note of in what Jesus says in Matthew 5:33-37.

First, Jesus does not say it is written, but says ye have heard that it hath been said.

Jesus purposely chose the words ye have heard that it hath been said instead ofit is writtento show us that the law of forswearing comes from the lying pen of the Scribes and is an addition to the law of Moses, but attributed to Moses by those same Scribes.

Secondly, some people have tried to tell me that this is only to show the difference between the old covenant and the new covenant. However, if this is the case then God changed His mind about what He wants from us and if God changes His mind about what He wants from us then His word is not steadfast. And if Gods word is not steadfast what assurances do we have that God will not change His mind again and again?

Thirdly, Jesus says whatsoever is more then yea and nay cometh from EVIL. So if forswearing ourselves came from God as Numbers 30:2 and Deuteronomy 23:21 suggest then Jesus would be saying God is EVIL or what God speaks is EVIL.

So we are left with a choice, we can either believe God changes His mind concerning what He wants from us, making His word not steadfast, or we can believe what Jeremiah stated in 8:8 that the lying pen of the Scribes have changed Gods laws into lies.

We see this same lying pen of the Scribe in the horrendous eye for an eye doctrine that the Scribes attributed to Moses in Exodus 21:21-24, Leviticus 24:19-20 and Deuteronomy 19:21

Exodus 21:22-24
22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the womanís husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, 24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Leviticus 24:19-20
19 And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him; 20 Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.
Deuteronomy 19:21
21 And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

But Jesus says that ye resist not evil.

Matthew 5:38-42
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

Jesusí words again are in total contradiction to what is written in Exodus 21:21-24, Leviticus 24:19-20 and Deuteronomy 19:21.


Take note of what Jesus says in Matthew 5:38-42

Again, Jesus does not say it is written, but says ye have heard that it hath been said.

And again, Jesus purposely chose the words ye have heard that it hath been said instead ofit is writtento show us that the law of an eye for an eye comes from the lying pen of the Scribes and is an addition to the law of Moses, but attributed to Moses by those same Scribes.

Matthew 5:43-45
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Take note that again Jesus uses the same manner of speech, Jesus does not say it is written, but says ye have heard that it hath been said. Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Oh, oh Houston we have a problem.
Nowhere is it stated in the bible that we are to hate our enemy.
Did Jesus make a blunder when he said you have heard that it hath been said?
NO, absolutely, NO, Jesus did not blunder when he said this.
So what is going on?
Everything else Jesus referenced in these sets of scripture is found written somewhere in the Law of Moses being an addition by the lying pen of the Scribes, but attributed to Moses. So why do we not find the term hate thine enemy also recorded?
Most probably, because the scribes deleted it from their writings after Jesus said love your enemies.
No matter how one looks at it, forswearing, eye for an eye and hate thine enemy are a total contradiction to what Jesus tells us.

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Old 09-07-2011, 09:45 PM
 
Location: Canada
4,274 posts, read 1,665,157 times
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Quote:
Pneuma, I never disagreed with you that all the apostles had the authority to bind and loose. I said that they were not given the keys to the kingdom. Only Peter was as Scripture shows. And this is how one can know they are in Christ's Church.

"On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" Cyprian of Carthage (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251])




Sorry but one cannot bind and loose without the keys to do so.


Quote:
Like I said before, the Church can't help who leaves:

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 1 Jn 2:19




The eastern orthodox can make that same claim as they were also the catholic church.

All you are doing is saying the RCC splinter of the catholic church is the catholic church, it is NOT. A splinter of the church is not the church, it's just a piece of wood from the real church.


Quote:
There is no "RCC", pneuma. "Roman Catholic church" is not a title of our Church. The church has always been called the "Catholic Church." It is the same Church that got its name from Scripture, worships like the apostles did, and that the Early Church Fathers wrote about.




Sorry but that is NOT the case, when the catholic church splintered the one became the RCC and the other became eastern orthodox. But of course the RCC would state that they are the true catholic church because they kept the name catholic whereas the eastern orthodox did not. Eastern orthodox has a much right to be called the catholic church as the RCC.


Quote:
Yes it is. And hopefully one day you will learn this. It will be the biggest blessing in your life if you do, just like it is in mine.




I truly am happy for you sis, but believe you are wrong on this.



Quote:
The Bishops ARE our teachers, pneuma. The bible itself says this:.

"Take heed to yourselves and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the Church of God which he hath purchased with his own blood." Acts 20:28

Again, where are your bishops in your church? Jesus said there will be bishops in His.




Bishops is plural sis, the pope is only one. That bishops is pluralised shows that there are more then just the Pope who is to teach. And as I have said a teacher is one that teaches in order to bring others into the same maturity they have.



Quote:
"What are the children of the wicked one"? You're confusing me, brother. And in your last post you said they weren't even children. Here is what you wrote:



"While what do you think the wheat and tares are sis, they ain't people they are the thoughts that people put into action."


Don't mean to confuse you sis, here are the scriptures on the tares, tell me what the tares are in your opinion.


Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. 31Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: 32Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof. 33Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. 34All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: 35That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. 36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.



Quote:
Would you defend your household from an intruder if it meant killing him?



That is not the same thing sis, the pope was not defending his home, he went to another's home and killed the people who lived there.


But it really does not matter what I would do, it matters what Christ would do and as He never raised a hand to those who killed Him.


Im afraid I am not there yet.


Quote:
So I take this to mean you do not adhere to the OT at all? And which books in the NT do you hold to?



No that is not what I am saying sis, I am just saying what Christ says because He fully knew the Father is superior to those who wrote the OT. And I take my view of the Father directly from Christ which is something we should all do as the Father said HEAR HIM (Jesus Christ), even though both Moses and Elijah were present with Jesus.




Quote:
Sorry, brother, but your words do not line up with Christ's description of His Church in Scripture.



Huh those were scriptures sis, look them up.


Quote:
I never said the Holy Spirit wasn't given to all. He is our comforter. I said He was sent only to the apostles to reveal all truth. This is in Scripture as Jesus was talking only to the 12 When he said this. We too can know all truth by hearing the Church, which is the pillar and foundation of truth, as GoodtobeHome said.

Again, why do you think the church was sent to teach in the first place if we were each individually to be mystically taught by the Holy Spirit? You've never answered this.

God bless and have a nice day, pneuma!



Answer me this sis "does the church come out of Christ?" and I will answer you question as they tie in.

God bless
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