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Pneuma, we would all have to be perfect and completely free of error and sin in order to order to teach by your standards. Do you think that's humanly possible?
file:///C:/Users/Scott/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif (broken link)
Humanly possible no, but with God all things are possible. That said August you are ignoring what those scriptures show. They show Peter taught others to dissimulate, this was an error on Peters part. Paul goes on to show that Peter dissimulation was hypocrisy and was a doctrinal issue.
You can't just sweep Paul under the table because some pope in the 1800 decided that he was infallible in regards to the scriptures.
Quote:
Jesus prayed for Peter alone for his faith to not fail. But no where does He say that Peter or any of the apostles were expected to be sinless or to teach by "example".
Huh? Jesus taught us by example and tells us to follow His example.
John 13:15
15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
Paul tells us to be an example in purity, IE sinlessness of life.
Dissimulation is NOT an example of purity of life.
1 Timothy 4:12
12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.
Peter himself say we are to be taught by example
1 Peter 2:19-23
19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. 20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. 21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us,leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
As for being Jesus expecting us to be sinless the whole of scripture is written for that exact purpose.
Paul say we are not to let sin reign
Jesus says be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect.
Jesus says everyone that is perfect shall be as his master, Jesus was sinless
Jesus says I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one
Jesus Christ is He who takes away the sin of the world
Have you never read that Christ is going to sanctify and cleanse his church with the washing of water by word that it might be without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that it should be holy and without blemish.
August that is a church without sin of any kind.
Quote:
Pneuma, for what reason do you think Jesus singled Peter out and changed his name to Rock, gave Peter individually the authority to bind and loose, and him alone the keys to the kingdom of heaven?
Peter is only ONE of TWELEVE foundations of the church, all of which are built on Christ
We can see it is NOT just Peter in these scriptures.
Ephesians 2:20
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Revelation 21:14
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Now you state Peter individually was given authority to bind and loose, but Jesus was NOT just speaking to Peter he was speaking to all the apostles. This can be seen here
Jesus speaking to the twelve says
Matthew 18:18
18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
August there is only ONE mediator between God and man, so what need do we have of a pope or any man to mediate for us with God.
Quote:
God bless, and have a nice day.
Augusta
God bless you also August, we might disagree but at least you are pleasant to disagree with
My goodness but what a tantrum. I take it refusing to give honest, direct answers to simple questions and calling people an ASS is your idea of "LOVE."
When someone cannot read the direct answers because of blind bias toward a particular interpretation of a passage . . . it can be difficult to get their attention. Apparently repeating my direct answers was not sufficient. Do you yet comprehend the issue with your and the RCC's self-serving beliefs about what that passage actually says?
Humanly possible no, but with God all things are possible. That said August you are ignoring what those scriptures show. They show Peter taught others to dissimulate, this was an error on Peters part. Paul goes on to show that Peter dissimulation was hypocrisy and was a doctrinal issue.
You can't just sweep Paul under the table because some pope in the 1800 decided that he was infallible in regards to the scriptures.
Huh? Jesus taught us by example and tells us to follow His example.
John 13:15
15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
Paul tells us to be an example in purity, IE sinlessness of life.
Dissimulation is NOT an example of purity of life.
1 Timothy 4:12
12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.
Peter himself say we are to be taught by example
1 Peter 2:19-23
19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. 20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. 21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us,leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
As for being Jesus expecting us to be sinless the whole of scripture is written for that exact purpose.
Paul say we are not to let sin reign
Jesus says be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect.
Jesus says everyone that is perfect shall be as his master, Jesus was sinless
Jesus says I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one
Jesus Christ is He who takes away the sin of the world
Have you never read that Christ is going to sanctify and cleanse his church with the washing of water by word that it might be without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that it should be holy and without blemish.
August that is a church without sin of any kind.
Pneuma, we're going to have to agree to disagree on this, for now at least. I don't think we're getting anywhere.
Peter is only ONE of TWELEVE foundations of the church, all of which are built on Christ
We can see it is NOT just Peter in these scriptures.
Ephesians 2:20
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Correct, but Peter was the first apostle that Christ built upon, the only one who was renamed Rock and given the keys.
Revelation 21:14
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Now you state Peter individually was given authority to bind and loose, but Jesus was NOT just speaking to Peter he was speaking to all the apostles. This can be seen here
Jesus speaking to the twelve says
Matthew 18:18
18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Right again, but Peter was given his authority first and separate from the rest, showing his primacy. Jesus said "you" are Peter and on this rock I will build my church. Remember, the other apostles were there with Peter, so Jesus could just as easily have given them the authority then, but He chose not to. Also Peter was the only one Jesus told to feed (feed - Poimaino means to govern/rule) his lamb and sheep (which includes the other apostles).
Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs." A second time he said to him, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep." He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, "Do you love me?" And he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." Jesus said to him, "Feed my sheep. Jn 21:15-17
Speaking of Paul, recall how he often addressed Peter by his Aramaic name, Cephas? Do you now what the root of Cephas (ceph) means? Head (hydrocephalus and encephalitis, for examples).
August there is only ONE mediator between God and man, so what need do we have of a pope or any man to mediate for us with God.
I agree and the Catholic Church is very clear that Jesus is our only mediator. To believe otherwise is a mortal sin.
God bless you also August, we might disagree but at least you are pleasant to disagree with
Thank you, Pneuma. I feel the same way about you.
Blessings,
Augusta
Last edited by Augusta33; 08-20-2011 at 11:53 PM..
My question had nothing to do about my "interpretation."
My question was:
for what reason do you think Jesus singled Peter out and changed his name to Rock, gave Peter individually the authority to bind and loose, and him alone the keys to the kingdom of heaven?
perhaps because Jesus knew that Peter would be tortured mercilessly and crusified upsidedown, so he wasn't going to have any time to do much damage. Or maybe Peter was supposed to make sure that all Jews would become Christian, or panentheists if that is what Jesus was.
The problem with not having a Pope, is that Jesus was a failure if he came just to leave. Couldn't he, as God, just be immortal and do magic tricks for us even today? Why all the need for the weirdo blood rituals, and covnants, and sacrafise to invisible deities, and weekend breaks/missions? Obviously the Pope can't do magic, so Christianity doesn't have much merit on this regard anyway.
How can Jesus be a mediator, if he IS God? a mediator would be someone less God, like Mary. But I don't believe you need any idols to reach God. Why doesn't Jesus just come out and state: "I am God, a third yet whole part of the triun Supreme Deity, Creator of this Universe...believe this and nothing else matters; your desire for a happy immortality will be attained"; that would be pretty straight forward. He'd have been crusified anyway, and thus would have been able to forgive us for living our lifes contrary to His wishes. Having sacrifised His Only Beggoten Son, who happens to be himself, unto Himself.
Or maybe Jesus was a panentheist. That might be a little more logical. Yeah, maybe he was a panentheist who thought himself too saintly to have been anything but a miracle from, and spokesman for, God. He might be looking down from heaven, shaking his head, "good job pagans, you were able to keep your demigod, trinity believes for quite a long while; though you had a name for me, I never knew you."
Last edited by LuminousTruth; 08-21-2011 at 01:52 AM..
Pneuma, we're going to have to agree to disagree on this, for now at least. I don't think we're getting anywhere.
August we can agree to disagree if you want but to agree to disagree is what gets people nowhere.
Peter himself tells us we are taught by example, surely your not going to disagree with who you deem to be the first infallable pope.
Quote:
Correct, but Peter was the first apostle that Christ built upon, the only one who was renamed Rock and given the keys.
Yes Peter was the first but he was NOT the only one given the keys.
Jesus stipulates what the keys are for, whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
This same binding and loosing Jesus says is given to all His disciples in Mat.18:18
Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
This tells us that the rest of the disciples also had the keys, else they would not have been able to bind and loose.
Quote:
Right again, but Peter was given his authority first and separate from the rest, showing his primacy. Jesus said "you" are Peter and on this rock I will build my church. Remember, the other apostles were there with Peter, so Jesus could just as easily have given them the authority then, but He chose not to. Also Peter was the only one Jesus told to feed (feed - Poimaino means to govern/rule) his lamb and sheep (which includes the other apostles).
I have no problem with Peter being the first, scripture testifies he is Mt.10:2, they also testify that Peter was to strengthen his brethren Lu.22:32. So we are not in disagreement here.
However Peter is NOT the only one who is told to feed the sheep.
Peter addressing the elders says
The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3Neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. 4And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
Did you get that brother, neither being lords over Gods heritage, which is something that the popes proclaim. And again we see Peter telling us to teach by example, something you say we are not to do.
Quote:
Speaking of Paul, recall how he often addressed Peter by his Aramaic name, Cephas? Do you now what the root of Cephas (ceph) means? Head (hydrocephalus and encephalitis, for examples).
Like I said I have no problem with Peter being first or head, but that does not make him infallible in doctrine, Paul proves this but you refuse to look at it.
Tell me August how do you see these scriptures.
Mark 9:38-40
38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. 39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. 40 For he that is not against us is on our part.
1 Corinthians 1:10-13
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
Now you believe that the Roman Catholic Church is the true Church and Peter was the head of that church. This is an error that the Roman Catholic Church teaches.
Peter was the head of the Catholic/universal Church NOT the Roman Catholic Church.
The Roman Catholic Church is just a splinter from the Universal Church (which is the true church) the same as the rest of the denomination we have today. What all these splinter cells from the Universal Church have done is divide Christ, something Paul tells us is not suppose to be done. And the Roman Catholic Church is just as guilty of this division as the rest of the denomination.
The RCC state we are of Peter and Paul tells us that is dividing Christ.
The name "Universal" Church precludes it from being the "Roman" Catholic Church.
007.5, Jesus did not give you or I the power to bind and loose or the keys to the kingdom of heaven. If he did then you need to show this from Scripture like I did. This authority is why the Catholic Church is still one in Christ today and Protestantism is dividing daily. Again, Jesus said we must be one as he and the Father are One and that there shall be NO divisions among us.
..................
Blessings,
augusta
True followers of Christ have all the power of heaven behind them being one with Christ , in Christ , and being his representatives to a lost world. True Followers get their marching orders from Christ and need not go thru an Intermediary like a Pope or a Priest to link us . Read Ephesians chapter 2 for clarity on what true Believers have in Christ and who they ARE in Christ.
Jesus' prayer in John 17 is to do with true Followers of Christ , that they would remain in one accord with him. The Bible commands us to seperate ourselves (divide ourselves from) apostate teaching which demotes Christ , his finished work on the cross , and diminishes the authority of scripture by adding external things to it . Finally, given Christs omniscience to look into the future, he would have never selected a Papal process you propose which has Popes being some of the worse mass murderers in history, adultery commiters, even having 2 popes at the same time , and Popes and Councils proclaiming 'anathema' (eternal damnation) against such clear Bible teaching as found in Eph. 2:8 and 9 which says faith alone for salvation in addition to dozens more anathemas against scriptural teaching. And i beg you to please dont tell me that the Papalcy is all about 'the Office' rather than the Individual Popes who have given a black eye to real Christianity thruout the centuries via added legalisms and power and control to the masses.
Im glad Christ is still the ONLY Advocate we need because he never relinquished his authority , and when that thick Temple curtain was ripped from top to bottom upon his death , we are now able to go directly to God without the interference and restriction of 'a Pope' or 'Priest' . Until you reach this place yourself, you will never be able to experience what Christ has done for you and the real freedom that he offers in himself. Its available if you want it , but, its going to mean turning from religion and practicing madeup traditions .... and embracing Christ in totality (including giving HIM the total authoirty in your life instead of subjecting yourself to another Human Being dressed in the finest of silk garb. Peace.
Are you suggesting that most Catholics worship their church instead of their God? I doubt they would agree. and I also, as a non-Catholic, don't agree with such an assertion. I believe you have a Protestant bias.
What does it mean to be a Protestant Christian? It means a Christian who is against the Catholic Church. Are you a Protestant Christian, or a non-denominational Christian?
Saying such a thing about other denominations of Christianity is like saying that most Protestant denominations worship their own interpretations of scripture.
Hard to believe you're not a Catholic with that answer.
I didn't for a second get the feeling the OP had a Protestant bias.
As far as us Protestants being against the Catholic Church: well, not most of us. We just perhaps feel more comfortable with, and believe more in the dogma of, our respective protestant denominations.
You must remember that the father of the Protestant movement, Martin Luther, was a German Catholic monk, fer chrissakes. (pun intended.). He loved his church but when he nailed his 95 Theses on the Church Door in Wittenburg he was simply trying to bring to light the misuse of power many Catholic priests were committing, such as SELLING salvation for money!
Also, it would do you well to recall that the Catholic Church wanted to kill Luther for this, if he did not recant. Indeed, had Luther not had a couple freinds in high places back in Germany, he in all probability would have been put to death.
Peace.
True followers of Christ have all the power of heaven behind them being one with Christ , in Christ , and being his representatives to a lost world. True Followers get their marching orders from Christ and need not go thru an Intermediary like a Pope or a Priest to link us . Read Ephesians chapter 2 for clarity on what true Believers have in Christ and who they ARE in Christ.
Jesus' prayer in John 17 is to do with true Followers of Christ , that they would remain in one accord with him. The Bible commands us to seperate ourselves (divide ourselves from) apostate teaching which demotes Christ , his finished work on the cross , and diminishes the authority of scripture by adding external things to it . Finally, given Christs omniscience to look into the future, he would have never selected a Papal process you propose which has Popes being some of the worse mass murderers in history, adultery commiters, even having 2 popes at the same time , and Popes and Councils proclaiming 'anathema' (eternal damnation) against such clear Bible teaching as found in Eph. 2:8 and 9 which says faith alone for salvation in addition to dozens more anathemas against scriptural teaching. And i beg you to please dont tell me that the Papalcy is all about 'the Office' rather than the Individual Popes who have given a black eye to real Christianity thruout the centuries via added legalisms and power and control to the masses.
Im glad Christ is still the ONLY Advocate we need because he never relinquished his authority , and when that thick Temple curtain was ripped from top to bottom upon his death , we are now able to go directly to God without the interference and restriction of 'a Pope' or 'Priest' . Until you reach this place yourself, you will never be able to experience what Christ has done for you and the real freedom that he offers in himself. Its available if you want it , but, its going to mean turning from religion and practicing madeup traditions .... andembracing Christ in totality (including giving HIM the total authoirty in your life instead of subjecting yourself to another Human Being dressed in the finest of silk garb. Peace.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrummerBoy
Also, it would do you well to recall that the Catholic Church wanted to kill Luther for this, if he did not recant. Indeed, had Luther not had a couple freinds in high places back in Germany, he in all probability would have been put to death.
Peace.
The RCC hierarchy is every bit as corrupt and evil an institution as the Mafia. Christ specifically wanted to ban any hierarchy among His followers because of the corrupting influence of power and control. True to the bent of human arrogance and egotism . . . they interpreted His example and caveat about wanting to be first not as a prohibition of hierarchy . . . but as the basis for the ritual to install the Pope!!! Individual Catholics (as with the innocent and sincere members of most religions) are not responsible for this evil institution . . . they are just victims of it.
August we can agree to disagree if you want but to agree to disagree is what gets people nowhere.
Peter himself tells us we are taught by example, surely your not going to disagree with who you deem to be the first infallable pope. Pneuma, if you insist that teaching is by example then this requires sinless perfection. No one is capable of this, not Peter, our other popes or any pastor of any church. Again, Jesus never asked this of Peter as a requirement to teach. He only prayed for his faith to be kept.
Yes Peter was the first but he was NOT the only one given the keys.
Jesus stipulates what the keys are for, whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
No. He was the only one given the keys. The keys are a special as they foretold his role as leader over the other apostles as well. Jesus showed this when He asked Peter if he loved Him more than the other apostles, and after he answered told him to rule/govern the others.
"In that day I will call my servant Eli'akim the son of Hilki'ah, and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open". Isaiah 22: 20-22
This is where Jesus got this from. Eliakim was a type of Peter. The word pope means father.
This same binding and loosing Jesus says is given to all His disciples in Mat.18:18
Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
This tells us that the rest of the disciples also had the keys, else they would not have been able to bind and loose.
I have no problem with Peter being the first, scripture testifies he is Mt.10:2, they also testify that Peter was to strengthen his brethren Lu.22:32. So we are not in disagreement here.However Peter is NOT the only one who is told to feed the sheep.
Peter addressing the elders says
The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3Neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. 4And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
^This is an example of Peter teaching other leaders right here. He is instructing them to feed the lamb (laity). That's their job. Only Peter was called to feed the sheep (them) and that's what's he doing.
Did you get that brother, neither being lords over Gods heritage, which is something that the popes proclaim. And again we see Peter telling us to teach by example, something you say we are not to do.
I'm a sister.
And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant. (Mt 20:27)
Our pope's title is Servant.
Like I said I have no problem with Peter being first or head, but that does not make him infallible in doctrine, Paul proves this but you refuse to look at it.
The pope's only infallible when speaking Ex Cathedra.
Tell me August how do you see these scriptures.
Mark 9:38-40
38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. 39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. 40 For he that is not against us is on our part.
Exactly what it says.
1 Corinthians 1:10-13
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
Exactly what it says. No divisions. This doesn't allow for the ones who "aren't against us" to usurp Christ by forming their own churches. Christ built one Church and those who seek truth will find their way there.
Now you believe that the Roman Catholic Church is the true Church and Peter was the head of that church. This is an error that the Roman Catholic Church teaches.
Peter was the head of the Catholic/universal Church NOT the Roman Catholic Church.
Pneuma, the term "Roman Catholic church" only refers to the diocese of Rome. The proper name of the Church IS the "Catholic Church."
The Roman Catholic Church is just a splinter from the Universal Church (which is the true church) the same as the rest of the denomination we have today. What all these splinter cells from the Universal Church have done is divide Christ, something Paul tells us is not suppose to be done. And the Roman Catholic Church is just as guilty of this division as the rest of the denomination.
The RCC state we are of Peter and Paul tells us that is dividing Christ.
No more than having a CEO "divides" a corporation. Or a principal divides a school. This leadership is why the Church has remained ONE since the beginning.
The name "Universal" Church precludes it from being the "Roman" Catholic Church.[/quote]
When the term Catholic was first used in Scripture there wereno other Churches. Only, well... the Catholic Church.
Btw, Pneuma, what church do you belong to?
Blessings.
augusta
Last edited by Augusta33; 08-21-2011 at 01:17 PM..
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Or maybe Peter was supposed to make sure that all Jews would become Christian, or panentheists if that is what Jesus was.
He is instructing them to feed the lamb (laity). That's their job. Only Peter was called to feed the sheep (them) and that's what's he doing. 
