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I'm sure your analogy was memorable but we've forgotten it. Perhaps you'll repeat it.
Goodness, but you come across as so angry. Have I said something to offend you?
1. Mary was not superior or divine and she indeed had to be saved just like us all. However, unlike us she was saved beforehand when she said yes to God so that Jesus would have a pure, holy and fitting vessel. Think of it this way: there is more than one way to be saved from a deep muddy ditch; one can be pulled from it after they fall in, OR he can be prevented from falling into it in the first place. With Mary it was the latter.
Getting back specifically to your claim. Why did Mary need Baptism if she had no Original Sin to begin with?
I think you misread my post. I never said Mary was "baptized in water." She may have been simply to be obedient but we have no way of knowing.
She had the original sin, too. how could she be sinless then? Saint Paul says there is no one righteous, not even one. we all sinned..
Plus according to scriptures, after the virgin birth, Mary and Joseph had children (at least 4 brothers and several sisters..) so it is also unclear why she's called a blameless virgin...
NO, she did not.
Mary was the Immaculate Conception, she was born without sin in order to be a perfect vessel to house our Lord as a human baby
you a catholic---why ????--since all your rhetoric towards catholicism is so negative-----why don't you join another religion that in your infinite biblical wisdom you can tolerate or fix to your liking?????
That sounds familar, I have been invited to leave the Catholic faith on more than one occasion by the "TRUE" Catholics here when I disagree with what they say, they don't like to have their viewpoint challenged by other Catholics; they get very fustrated.
you a catholic---why ????--since all your rhetoric towards catholicism is so negative-----why don't you join another religion that in your infinite biblical wisdom you can tolerate or fix to your liking?????
RESPONSE:
No. I plan to stick with Catholicism (Christianity), and perhaps help restore it to what it originally was, rather than what it has become.
I think you misread my post. I never said Mary was "baptized in water." She may have been simply to be obedient but we have no way of knowing.
RESPONSE:
According to (Western) Roman Catholic teaching, Mary was preserved for the stain of the guilt of Original sin. And she was also sinless herself. Hence, she would have no need of Redemption (or baptism for that matter).
Moreover, if you believe the whole story, she possessed the "preternatural gifts" and hnce had no pain in childbirth and didn't die.
"Adam and Eve originally received the preternatural gifts of immortality, impassibility, freedom from concupiscence, ignorance, and sin, and lordship over the earth." http://www.secondexodus.com/html/cat...ternatural.htm
Assuming you believe that story.
Last edited by ancient warrior; 08-18-2011 at 06:43 PM..
Reason: addition
missik999
Senior Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovesMountains
NO, she did not.
>>Mary was the Immaculate Conception, she was born without sin in order to be a perfect vessel to house our Lord as a human baby <<
>>What scriptures support that line of reasoning?<<
RESPONSE:
From the Catholic Encyclopedia, these admissions:
"No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture."
•Origen, although he ascribed to Mary high spiritual prerogatives, thought that, at the time of Christ's passion, the sword of disbelief pierced Mary's soul; that she was struck by the poniard of doubt; and that and that for her sins also Christ died.
•In the same manner St. Basil writes in the fourth century: he sees in the sword, of which Simeon speaks, the doubt which pierced Mary's soul (Epistle 259).
•St. Chrysostom accuses her of ambition, and of putting herself forward unduly when she sought to speak to Jesus at Capharnaum (Matthew 12:46; Chrysostom, Homily 44 on Matthew).
"St. John Damascene (Or. i Nativ. Deip., n. 2) esteems the supernatural influence of God at the generation of Mary to be so comprehensive that he extends it also to her parents. He says of them that, during the generation, they were filled and purified by the Holy Ghost, and freed from sexual concupiscence.
"To determine the origin of this feast we must take into account the genuine documents we possess, the oldest of which is the canon of the feast, composed by St. Andrew of Crete, who wrote his liturgical hymns in the second half of the seventh century, when a monk at the monastery of St. Sabas near Jerusalem (d. Archbishop of Crete about 720).
So the Immaculate Conception concept was a product of the 7th or 8th century. But it only became "dogma" in 1854.
Last edited by ancient warrior; 08-18-2011 at 07:02 PM..
Reason: typo
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