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Nice post. And that's all fine and dandy...but if you leave out the important aspects that ChristyGrl mentioned, you're missning the point of Christ's message. The way to be saved in my opinion, is to do everything that Christ said to do...and to comprehend what he was trying to teach us.
What you said to ChristyGrl: "The Gospel of Christ is not a lifelong acting out of righteous living hoping that will count toward eternal salvation -- the acting out of good living and service and deeds only counts as REWARDS in heaven IF One is saved from their sins on earth ; and to wash away ones sins requires the shed blood of Christ on calvary applied to our sins..." is not correct in my view.
So you are saying that all the things Christ said to do to be saved actually CHANGED once he was crucified? That when he said to the rich man "you lack one thing...go and sell all that you have and give it to the poor" that this was no longer valid after the Crucifixion? How does that work exactly?
Christ told this rich man what he would have to do in order to overcome his material attachments. But you are saying that once the blood was shed...it changed. That it is no longer necessary to understand the dynamic that is at work here. And I guess you also believe, that if we accept your take on salvation, that you can be as rich as you want to be, without regard for Christ's actual guidance, and everything is dandy? How does the Crucifixion nullify Christ's own teachings regarding salvation and the state we are in.
Even after Christ resurrected, he didn't say that his Crucifixion changed the way to salvation...unless I'm missing something. Did he in fact say this?
FAITH IN CHRIST/GOD + GENUINE WORKS will lead you to salvation. God can tell which works are fake and which are truly heartfelt. The part that I highlighted in your message is the big lie that is being told throughout Christianity. Remember, Christ said "narrow is the path that leads to salvation and few be it that find it." This concept that all you have to do is "Say you believe" is not right. Do you know how many people kid themselves that they believe, because they want to believe in the salvation...yet they don't truly follow Christ or his teachings. And how many, who don't have to courage to do much good, will buckle and falter when they are really put to the test? To some people, he will say "I have never known you." He also said "not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will get into heaven."
I don't want to argue about this at all...but Paul's statements must be interpreted through Christ, and not the other way around, in my opinion. A lot of the "Christians" I have known that do it the other way don't seem to be too truly enlightened or happy. Many of them seem to truly lack compassion as well, or stay lost in their sin, thinking everything is okay because they go to church and fill their minds with Paul. I don't need Paul to tell me how to be saved. I have studied theology and mysticism for over 20 years, as well as most of the world's religions. "Christians" that are intoxicatingly indoctrinated with Paul's take on it, from some of these churches, may never see the big picture.
The Gospel that saves us from sins is The Gospel (the Four Gospels). Not the Gospel of Paul.
This concept that somehow Christ's message or path of salvation CHANGED after the crucifixion is hogwash. Let's not argue however. Lets just agree to disagree, if we could.
Nicely stated!!! Easy "Believeism" is the order of Christianity today...you don't have to actually FOLLOW the path that Jesus laid out in order to realize the Kingdom of God here while living...all you have to do is "Believe".
The path certainly is narrow...and there are very FEW who actually find it, walk it and live it.
The Bible defines the Gospel of Christ which Paul and the other Apostles preached, in 1 Cor. 15:1-4 . It is no more and no less. We are not at one with God until this Gospel is recieved personally unto oneself. It is a PRESENT offer for all of us , and it can be REALIZED (present tense) just as 1 John 5:13 clearly says . In fact, it must be realized and applied to oneself so we can 'be passed from darkness unto life' (John 5:24) . The Gospel of Christ is not a lifelong acting out of righteous living hoping that will count toward eternal salvation -- the acting out of good living and service and deeds only counts as REWARDS in heaven IF One is saved from their sins on earth ; and to wash away ones sins requires the shed blood of Christ on calvary applied to our sins....which is the Gospel of Good News (that we are washed of all our sins , forgiven, and have in advance an eternal inheritance in heaven awaiting us) . It is very important to first be reconciled to God thru the Gospel, and only then will living a changed life count (not toward salvation) but for eternal rewards.
How to be saved is often missed, so I beg please be sure you get all your sins taken care of by the shed blood of Christ alone, without trying to earn it by adding something to it. Otherrwise, its dirty grace and fully pure as God needs it to be from him. Regards.
Matthew 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease among the people.
Jesus preached the gospel (the good news) of the Kingdom of God...Jesus laid out a specific path for us to FOLLOW...certain things we are responsible for doing in order to realize (see & experience) the Kingdom of God while still in our physical bodies. The way one is "saved" from their sins (their ignorance) is by not only believing what Jesus taught but actually FOLLOWING & LIVING IT.
Nice post. And that's all fine and dandy...but if you leave out the important aspects that ChristyGrl mentioned, you're missning the point of Christ's message. The way to be saved in my opinion, is to do everything that Christ said to do...and to comprehend what he was trying to teach us.
What you said to ChristyGrl: "The Gospel of Christ is not a lifelong acting out of righteous living hoping that will count toward eternal salvation -- the acting out of good living and service and deeds only counts as REWARDS in heaven IF One is saved from their sins on earth ; and to wash away ones sins requires the shed blood of Christ on calvary applied to our sins..." is not correct in my view.
So you are saying that all the things Christ said to do to be saved actually CHANGED once he was crucified? That when he said to the rich man "you lack one thing...go and sell all that you have and give it to the poor" that this was no longer valid after the Crucifixion? How does that work exactly?
Christ told this rich man what he would have to do in order to overcome his material attachments. But you are saying that once the blood was shed...it changed. That it is no longer necessary to understand the dynamic that is at work here. And I guess you also believe, that if we accept your take on salvation, that you can be as rich as you want to be, without regard for Christ's actual guidance, and everything is dandy? How does the Crucifixion nullify Christ's own teachings regarding salvation and the state we are in.
Even after Christ resurrected, he didn't say that his Crucifixion changed the way to salvation...unless I'm missing something. Did he in fact say this?
FAITH IN CHRIST/GOD + GENUINE WORKS will lead you to salvation. God can tell which works are fake and which are truly heartfelt. The part that I highlighted in your message is the big lie that is being told throughout Christianity. Remember, Christ said "narrow is the path that leads to salvation and few be it that find it." This concept that all you have to do is "Say you believe" is not right. Do you know how many people kid themselves that they believe, because they want to believe in the salvation...yet they don't truly follow Christ or his teachings. And how many, who don't have to courage to do much good, will buckle and falter when they are really put to the test? To some people, he will say "I have never known you." He also said "not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will get into heaven."
I don't want to argue about this at all...but Paul's statements must be interpreted through Christ, and not the other way around, in my opinion. A lot of the "Christians" I have known that do it the other way don't seem to be too truly enlightened or happy. Many of them seem to truly lack compassion as well, or stay lost in their sin, thinking everything is okay because they go to church and fill their minds with Paul. I don't need Paul to tell me how to be saved. I have studied theology and mysticism for over 20 years, as well as most of the world's religions. "Christians" that are intoxicatingly indoctrinated with Paul's take on it, from some of these churches, may never see the big picture.
The Gospel that saves us from sins is The Gospel (the Four Gospels). Not the Gospel of Paul.
This concept that somehow Christ's message or path of salvation CHANGED after the crucifixion is hogwash. Let's not argue however. Lets just agree to disagree, if we could.
Salvation according to Romans 1:16 and 17 is DUE to the Gospel of Christ, period. And its gotton by simple faith in what Christ has done , alone. THe Gospel is specifically defined in 1 Cor. 15:1-4 involving ONLY Christs death , burial, and ressurection -- nothing added or deleted .
All the teachings of Christ on HOW TO LIVE including the subsequent service to God and Others... is called Santification, and not Salvation. So it looks like this as an equation :
Christs finished work on Calvary for forgiveness of sins + our Faith that its enough to save us = Eternal Salvation + how Christ taught us to live (incl. kingdom values, etc...) . NOTE: How we live according to Christs teachings is the RESULTING EVIDENCE from having been saved...and it must not be put TOWARD us getting saved...because as the Bible says repeatedly, salvation is a free undeserved gift of God (Eph. 2:8-9) . We are saved TO DO (unto) good works -- Eph. 2:10 .
This is very critical because if we add one iota to Gods free gift of salvation, then we end up nullifying the gift. If someone gives us a Birthday Gift, we never say 'Well, what can i do to make myself worthy of it ?' . If we did, then, it wouldnt be a free gift would it ? If you havent accepted the FREE gift of Christ (alone) by dying for your sins , then you need to trust and appropriate that to yourself right away ; then do what Christ told you to do as far as how to live from then on out. . Regards.
Matthew 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease among the people.
Jesus preached the gospel (the good news) of the Kingdom of God...Jesus laid out a specific path for us to FOLLOW...certain things we are responsible for doing in order to realize (see & experience) the Kingdom of God while still in our physical bodies. The way one is "saved" from their sins (their ignorance) is by not only believing what Jesus taught but actually FOLLOWING & LIVING IT.
Jesus, first and foremost ... taught John 3:16 which is Gods global plan to be saved from sins to have eternal life ... and THAT is what the good news Gospel of Christ is --- its all based on what HE DID for us. After we accept this free gift unto ourselves, THEN his commandments/teachings/etc.. are put into practice as a result of a changed life lived in the power of God. Sins are totally forgiven by what Christ DID...and not based on what we should be doing . What we do is an offering to God once we HAVE BEEN saved thru the Gospel message (hearing it, then responding to it) . This is biblical teaching and im afraid many religions mean well, but they get it wrong ..and if you get the real Gospel of Christ wrong, then eternal salvation cant be had .. just as Pauls concern was in Galatians chapter 1:6-10 <<< a very important appeal of Pauls to those who adopted a wrong 'gospel' which cannot save (Gods free undeserved gift which is being infused with a persons (alleged) good works.
Are you trusting solely in the finished work of Christ which is the Gospel preached to all ? Only you know if you are trusting in only Christs merits on calvary .
Salvation according to Romans 1:16 and 17 is DUE to the Gospel of Christ, period. And its gotton by simple faith in what Christ has done , alone. THe Gospel is specifically defined in 1 Cor. 15:1-4 involving ONLY Christs death , burial, and ressurection -- nothing added or deleted .
All the teachings of Christ on HOW TO LIVE including the subsequent service to God and Others... is called Santification, and not Salvation. So it looks like this as an equation :
Christs finished work on Calvary for forgiveness of sins + our Faith that its enough to save us = Eternal Salvation + how Christ taught us to live (incl. kingdom values, etc...) . NOTE: How we live according to Christs teachings is the RESULTING EVIDENCE from having been saved...and it must not be put TOWARD us getting saved...because as the Bible says repeatedly, salvation is a free undeserved gift of God (Eph. 2:8-9) . We are saved TO DO (unto) good works -- Eph. 2:10 .
This is very critical because if we add one iota to Gods free gift of salvation, then we end up nullifying the gift. If someone gives us a Birthday Gift, we never say 'Well, what can i do to make myself worthy of it ?' . If we did, then, it wouldnt be a free gift would it ? If you havent accepted the FREE gift of Christ (alone) by dying for your sins , then you need to trust and appropriate that to yourself right away ; then do what Christ told you to do as far as how to live from then on out. . Regards.
Regarding the part that I highlighted...who taught you that...Christ or someone else? I don't recall where Christ says this. He never used the word sanctification or made any kind of distinction.
And Jesus didn't first and foremost teach John 3:16. The Gospel of John was the last one to be written...so it can't be "first and foremost." There is no "first and foremost" because as Christ said...we live by "every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God," and not just because it fits so nicely with things Paul said...but we live BY ALL FOUR GOSPELS, and EVERY WORD OF THEM, which ARE NOT TO BE CONTRADICTED.
All this focus on "What he did" wasn't the point. That's why Christ asked "why do you not do what I say?"
It seems that lazy Christians want to think that the minute they believe...that the Spirit just transforms them day by day...like a magic pill. While the Holy Spirit does transform us..."God helps those who help themselves," and you must "pick up your cross" daily and Follow Him. There is work involved, my friend.
As far as the Gospel question..it really is so obvious: If we believe in and do everything that Christ said, we will have salvation.
Anything else that is preached, is not the Truth.
His sheep know His voice, and follow Him wherever he goes.
You should understand that many people have come to question Paul..and there are many that, though they don't reject all of his teachings outright, don't agree with a lot of the things he said. His letters also weren't originally indended to be part of scripture. They may have even been included for the same reason Christ was crucified...which is to keep people from understanding the real message. I know you won't agree..and I'm okay with that.
About church..I have a thought. It seems to me that the people who follow Paul over Christ absolutely need to stay in church...otherwise the effect of all the "feel good doctrine" wears off..whereas those who have a real relationship with Christ have Him there no matter where they are.
You asked "Only you know if you are trusting in only Christs merits on calvary."
I know I am trusting in Christ's merits...because I am loving and fearless..and I put all manner of evil spirits under my feet. I have defended Christ without fail since I accepted him when I was 5 years old. The Lord speaks to me in a clear voice that is not my own occasionally, and tells me things (that always turn out to be true) that I could not have known myself. He has saved my life too many times to count..and has blessed me with ever increasing gifts.
This will be my last post on this topic.
Peace,
Randy
Last edited by TwoWitnesses; 08-30-2011 at 01:21 PM..
Jesus, first and foremost ... taught John 3:16 which is Gods global plan to be saved from sins to have eternal life ... and THAT is what the good news Gospel of Christ is --- its all based on what HE DID for us. After we accept this free gift unto ourselves, THEN his commandments/teachings/etc.. are put into practice as a result of a changed life lived in the power of God. Sins are totally forgiven by what Christ DID...and not based on what we should be doing . What we do is an offering to God once we HAVE BEEN saved thru the Gospel message (hearing it, then responding to it) . This is biblical teaching and im afraid many religions mean well, but they get it wrong ..and if you get the real Gospel of Christ wrong, then eternal salvation cant be had .. just as Pauls concern was in Galatians chapter 1:6-10 <<< a very important appeal of Pauls to those who adopted a wrong 'gospel' which cannot save (Gods free undeserved gift which is being infused with a persons (alleged) good works.
Are you trusting solely in the finished work of Christ which is the Gospel preached to all ? Only you know if you are trusting in only Christs merits on calvary .
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl
I'm quite sure that the gospel, as it has been revealed to me, and the gospel of your understanding are two completely different things.
I did tell you this ahead of time and it seems I was correct in assuming it.
Don't confuse the modern day "gospel" of Christianity with what Jesus actually taught...they are not the same gospel.
Last edited by ChristyGrl; 08-30-2011 at 01:31 PM..
Regarding the part that I highlighted...who taught you that...Christ or someone else? I don't recall where Christ says this. He never used the word sanctification or made any kind of distinction.
As far as the Gospel question..it really is so obvious: If we believe in and do everything that Christ said, we will have salvation.
Anything else that is preached, is not the Truth.
His sheep know His voice, and follow Him wherever he goes.
About church..I have a thought. It seems to me that the people who follow Paul over Christ absolutely need to stay in church...otherwise the effect of all the "feel good doctrine" wears off..whereas those who have a real relationship with Christ have Him there no matter where they are.
This will be my last post in this particular thread.
Peace,
Randy
Like you, I also see SALVATION as a life long process of FOLLOWING the path that Jesus laid out for us. Way too many have been misled regarding the steps required to gain access to the Kingdom of God...I know firsthand how much time I wasted following what others told me about God instead of seeking FIRST the Kingdom that is WITHIN US ALL and learning the ACTUAL TRUTH.
Dearest Randy...I hope you were joking about this being your last post because I have enjoyed them immensely. It's rare to find people at the same consciousness level that I am at...as evidenced by some of the posts here...and I have enjoyed learning from you and seeing your perspective. Just because others are closed minded, doesn't mean everyone is...for you never know who is lurking and reading without posting.
Matthew 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease among the people.
Jesus preached the gospel (the good news) of the Kingdom of God...Jesus laid out a specific path for us to FOLLOW...certain things we are responsible for doing in order to realize (see & experience) the Kingdom of God while still in our physical bodies. The way one is "saved" from their sins (their ignorance) is by not only believing what Jesus taught but actually FOLLOWING & LIVING IT.
Like you, I also see SALVATION as a life long process of FOLLOWING the path that Jesus laid out for us. Way too many have been misled regarding the steps required to gain access to the Kingdom of God...I know firsthand how much time I wasted following what others told me about God instead of seeking FIRST the Kingdom that is WITHIN US ALL and learning the ACTUAL TRUTH.
Dearest Randy...I hope you were joking about this being your last post because I have enjoyed them immensely. It's rare to find people at the same consciousness level that I am at...as evidenced by some of the posts here...and I have enjoyed learning from you and seeing your perspective. Just because others are closed minded, doesn't mean everyone is...for you never know who is lurking and reading without posting.
Don't worry..I love this board! I just meant that I didn't want to continue debating the topic here. Thank you so much for the nice words!! I appreciate all your posts immensely as well, as you know.
Regarding the part that I highlighted...who taught you that...Christ or someone else? I don't recall where Christ says this. He never used the word sanctification or made any kind of distinction.
And Jesus didn't first and foremost teach John 3:16. The Gospel of John was the last one to be written...so it can't be "first and foremost." There is no "first and foremost" because as Christ said...we live by "every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God," and not just because it fits so nicely with things Paul said...but we live BY ALL FOUR GOSPELS, and EVERY WORD OF THEM, which ARE NOT TO BE CONTRADICTED.
All this focus on "What he did" wasn't the point. That's why Christ asked "why do you not do what I say?"
It seems that lazy Christians want to think that the minute they believe...that the Spirit just transforms them day by day...like a magic pill. While the Holy Spirit does transform us..."God helps those who help themselves," and you must "pick up your cross" daily and Follow Him. There is work involved, my friend.
As far as the Gospel question..it really is so obvious: If we believe in and do everything that Christ said, we will have salvation.
Anything else that is preached, is not the Truth.
His sheep know His voice, and follow Him wherever he goes.
You should understand that many people have come to question Paul..and there are many that, though they don't reject all of his teachings outright, don't agree with a lot of the things he said. His letters also weren't originally indended to be part of scripture. They may have even been included for the same reason Christ was crucified...which is to keep people from understanding the real message. I know you won't agree..and I'm okay with that.
About church..I have a thought. It seems to me that the people who follow Paul over Christ absolutely need to stay in church...otherwise the effect of all the "feel good doctrine" wears off..whereas those who have a real relationship with Christ have Him there no matter where they are.
You asked "Only you know if you are trusting in only Christs merits on calvary."
I know I am trusting in Christ's merits...because I am loving and fearless..and I put all manner of evil spirits under my feet. I have defended Christ without fail since I accepted him when I was 5 years old. The Lord speaks to me in a clear voice that is not my own occasionally, and tells me things (that always turn out to be true) that I could not have known myself. He has saved my life too many times to count..and has blessed me with ever increasing gifts.
This will be my last post on this topic.
Peace,
Randy
Sanctification is a word that means the ongoing working of the Holy Spirit of God in ones life. God doesnt come into ones life UNLESS they are reconciled to God first..and that is thru hearing the Gospel Message that you can have all your sins forgiven by the death, burial, and ressurection of Christ ... a free undeserved gift to you . You get saved, then you get Gods Spirit living in you to live by his power , and, to walk in Christlikeness. Santification comes after Salvation . It is never to be infused or mixed together otherwise , you damage the FREE gift which salvation is. Its first one, then the other comes.
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