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Old 08-24-2011, 07:55 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
2,989 posts, read 1,572,652 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiggy View Post
d,
It's not this wishy-washy Kumbaya that Universalists seem to embrace
There will be nothing "wishy-washy" about kolasis aionios.
It will effectively administer corrective chastisement for everyone who needs it.
Only God knows the duration and intensity that each person will need.
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Old 08-24-2011, 07:56 PM
 
12,785 posts, read 6,757,106 times
Reputation: 2283
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
I have yet to find anyone who can refute the conclusions of
John Wesley Hanson in his writing
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
AIN -- AINIOS
The conclusions of a Universalist are meaningless as they are determined to discredit the Biblical revelation of that which awaits the unbeliever.
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Old 08-24-2011, 07:56 PM
 
6,464 posts, read 5,003,837 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
And here is the obstinate refusal of the Universalist to acknowledge the clear revelation of Scripture. Making appeals to logic and 'human reasoning' in an attempt to discredit the many Biblical passages which state that God will eternally separate from Himself those who have refused His offer of salvation.

God's mercy resulted in Christ going to the cross to make salvation possible for mankind. When God's offer of savation, when His mercy is refused by a person, God's Justice leaves that person under condemnation.

God's Justice saves the believer and condemns the unbeliever.

God's mercy made it possible to escape His Justice in condemnation through faith in Christ.

Man has only until physical death to accept Christ as Savior. After that, there remains only eternal condemnation.

The good news is that Christ made it possible to avoid the bad news. But when the good news is rejected, there remains nothing but the bad news.

God expects the believer to show mercy (James 2:13; Matt 5:7; 6:14-15; 18:21-35). This has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that when God's mercy has been rejected, God's Justice must go into action in condemnation.

The parable of the lost sheep is simply a picture of God's desire to see the lost return to Him. It does not mean that they will. Jesus who told that parable also said the following.

Matthew 25:41 ''Then He (Jesus Christ) will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 46] 'And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.'

All Universalists take passages out of context just as you have done, and attempt to use them to refute the clear passages which state what awaits the unbeliever who refuses God's mercy.
Mike, I'm just trying to appeal to your sense of reason. When a person'(s') interpretation of scriptures consigns 99.999% of humanity to eternal flames and saves only 0.001% of them, especially when an equal body of scripture says just the opposite, then one has to look past the debate to the psyche of the person(s) making claims of such cosmic import. It's interesting to note that it's always someone who thinks they are already saved who makes these irrational, totally out of left field statements. Logos_x alludes to psychologists who have said that such individuals come close to possessing latent delusions of grandeur and a God-complex themselves--almost as if their subconscious is eagerly pushing them to step into God's shoes and pronounce judgment on sinners.

Here are a few questions that the ET'er should, with an open heart, not a stubborn one, ask him/herself:

Quote:
Has not Satan been totally defeated by Christ at Calvary?

How can we read that--of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are ALL THINGS and then in our restricting doctrine believe and teach only SOME THINGS?

Is God in any way able to be limited or hindered? How is it remotely possible that a God of such immense power is rendered impotent in His desire to save man by puny man's will to disobey God? More to the point: is a man actually more powerful than God, in that he can defeat God simply by saying, "My will is stronger than yours, God. You want to save me and yet I have the power to thwart your intentions and desires to save me merely by saying 'No' and there's not a thing you can do about it except throw up your Hands and shake your Head."

If the purpose and existence of evil was eternal, never ending, would that not defeat the ultimate purpose of its own creation and existence allowed and permitted of the creator? Would it not also defeat for the most part, the very purpose of Christ’s existence?
Anyone who wants to confront literally a 1000 such intelligent albeit thorny questions and then read the ultimate "Good News" that gives satisfying solutions to the dilemmas posed by these questions and ET should peruse

“ETERNAL TORMENT”
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Old 08-24-2011, 07:56 PM
 
Location: RI
19,042 posts, read 9,269,061 times
Reputation: 1333
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiggy View Post
d,

I do understand the love of God, Ironmaw. He love the world so much that He gave His only Son for my sins. That's true love. It's not this wishy-washy Kumbaya that Universalists seem to embrace. God is love, but He is holy and pure. He does not tolerate unrepentent sin. No amount of tinkering with the Word of God is going to change that. Christian mysticism and Universalism just isn't going to cut it.
Hey kiggy

God is far more tolerant towards us than you could ever think or imagine.Consider these 2 verses

Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?Rom 2:4

He does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our inquities.Psalm 103:10
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Old 08-24-2011, 07:59 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
2,989 posts, read 1,572,652 times
Reputation: 219
Post Students will decide which conclusions are meaningless

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The conclusions of a Universalist are meaningless as they are determined to discredit the Biblical revelation of that which awaits the unbeliever.
Students will decide about that for themselves.

My Greek scholars are Louis Abbott and the many Greek scholars he quotes in chapters three and twelve of
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
An Analytical Study of Words

Also see THE SCHOLAR’S CORNER FOR THE STUDY OF BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM at
Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.

But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that that is exactly what God is like.
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Old 08-24-2011, 08:03 PM
 
12,785 posts, read 6,757,106 times
Reputation: 2283
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
Everyone will choose to believe whatever they are convinced is the truth about what the Bible teaches. I post on forums to give people an alternate point of view. Had I known that one existed I never would have had a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78 over my inability to love a god who would allow anyone actually prefer to suffer forever rather than eventually reach out for the salvation that God has provided. I'm 72 years old now.

THE FOLLOWING HAS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE TRUE REGARDING THE DEBATE ABOUT ETERNAL TORMENT
The argument about “eternal hell” nearly always gets bogged down with the words, “My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars,” and the result is nearly always a stalemate.

My Greek scholars are Louis Abbott and the many Greek scholars he quotes in chapters three and twelve of
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
An Analytical Study of Words

Also see THE SCHOLAR’S CORNER FOR THE STUDY OF BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM at
Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.

But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that that is exactly what God is like.
God does not and cannot compromise His holiness when dealing with sinful man. God provided the means by which fallen man can come to Him on the basis of the work of Christ on the Cross. But it is only through personal faith in Christ that the gift of eternal life can be appropriated. God has no choice but to leave in eternal condemnation all who die without ever receiving Christ as Savior.

As you outright reject this and refuse to listen to truth, there is no point spending any more time on you.

If you will not believe the truth, then believe the lie.
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Old 08-24-2011, 08:06 PM
 
Location: NH/Englewood, FL
1,076 posts, read 615,218 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Hey kiggy

God is far more tolerant towards us than you could ever think or imagine.Consider these 2 verses

Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?Rom 2:4

He does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our inquities.Psalm 103:10

Totally agree. Christ's ultimate sacrifice is the only reason that I have salvation. However, He doesn't forgive unrepentent sin. If someone dies without believing that Christ died for his sin, he has no forgiveness. No where in the bible does it say there's a purgatory, or temporary hell. Hell is final, a place for Lucifer (Satan) and his angels and unbelievers. God is not Santa Claus-- He is a holy omnipotent Lord of the Universe. Just because His holiness doesn't appeal to modern sensibilities, we cannot re-create God to fit our wish list. He is what He is. Holy. Pure.
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Old 08-24-2011, 08:09 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
2,989 posts, read 1,572,652 times
Reputation: 219
Post "There is no more point in spending more time on me"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
God does not and cannot compromise His holiness when dealing with sinful man. God provided the means by which fallen man can come to Him on the basis of the work of Christ on the Cross. But it is only through personal faith in Christ that the gift of eternal life can be appropriated. God has no choice but to leave in eternal condemnation all who die without ever receiving Christ as Savior.

As you outright reject this and refuse to listen to truth, there is no point spending any more time on you.

If you will not believe the truth, then believe the lie.
Of course there is no more point in spending more time on me because I am convinced (being aware of the arguments in support of both points of view) that my Greek scholars are more reliable than yours.

Students will decide for themselves.

My Greek scholars are Louis Abbott and the many Greek scholars he quotes in chapters three and twelve of
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
An Analytical Study of Words

Also see THE SCHOLAR’S CORNER FOR THE STUDY OF BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM at
Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.

But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that that is exactly what God is like.
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Old 08-24-2011, 08:11 PM
 
Location: NH/Englewood, FL
1,076 posts, read 615,218 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
God does not and cannot compromise His holiness when dealing with sinful man. God provided the means by which fallen man can come to Him on the basis of the work of Christ on the Cross. But it is only through personal faith in Christ that the gift of eternal life can be appropriated. God has no choice but to leave in eternal condemnation all who die without ever receiving Christ as Savior.

As you outright reject this and refuse to listen to truth, there is no point spending any more time on you.

If you will not believe the truth, then believe the lie.
We can't make our own God, as that would be idolatry. We can't delete the parts of God's holy personality that "offend" our sensibilities. He doesn't answer to us -- We're accountable to Him. We have the choice of accepting God and His Son Jesus, who died for our sins, or we can worship a made-up god of our own creation, like the Israelites worshipped the golden calf.
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Old 08-24-2011, 08:14 PM
 
Location: RI
19,042 posts, read 9,269,061 times
Reputation: 1333
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiggy View Post
Totally agree. Christ's ultimate sacrifice is the only reason that I have salvation. However, He doesn't forgive unrepentent sin. If someone dies without believing that Christ died for his sin, he has no forgiveness. No where in the bible does it say there's a purgatory, or temporary hell. Hell is final, a place for Lucifer (Satan) and his angels and unbelievers. God is not Santa Claus-- He is a holy omnipotent Lord of the Universe. Just because His holiness doesn't appeal to modern sensibilities, we cannot re-create God to fit our wish list. He is what He is. Holy. Pure.
Hey kiggy if you want to do the old "nowhere in the bible thing does it say",nowhere in the bible does it say there is no forgiveness beyond the grave too. You are right He is Holy and pure, yet He demonstrated His love towards sinners at their worst and whatsmore He subjected them in that state of bondage of sin,why ?

For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
Romans 8:20-21
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