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But not everyone is going to be saved. Even those committed to Satan will bow down to the Lord when He comes just because of the sheer magnitude of His glory. That doesn't mean they will have salvation.
What will they have then? If they are bowing and praising god you'd think that salvation is a moot point. Right?
But not everyone is going to be saved. Even those committed to Satan will bow down to the Lord when He comes just because of the sheer magnitude of His glory. That doesn't mean they will have salvation.
That is your belief.
But I answered your question and my answer was consistent with the scripture your quoted. Yes, one must believe to be saved.
Isaiah 45
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
Verse 22 sets the context. Salvation of all the ends of the earth. God commands all the earth to look to him and be saved. That command is God's word. Will that command be fulfilled or return empty?
Verse 23 declares the the word coming out of God's mouth will not return void. Unto God every knee will bow and tongue will swear. What will they swear?
Verse 24 says what they will say: Surely one will say..."In the Lord have I righteousness and streingth"... sounds like a confession of faith to me.
I do understand the love of God, Ironmaw. He love the world so much that He gave His only Son for my sins. That's true love. It's not this wishy-washy Kumbaya that Universalists seem to embrace. God is love, but He is holy and pure. He does not tolerate unrepentent sin. No amount of tinkering with the Word of God is going to change that. Christian mysticism and Universalism just isn't going to cut it.
I don't believe that you do understand, yet ... Christ died for our sins(believers) , and not only for our sin but also for the sin of the whole world.
Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess, in due time.
Arn't you glad ETers don't run the judicial system?
Arn't you glad ETers don't run the judicial system of our countries with their perception of what justice is?
ET "justice" administered without love;
Sustaining people alive in an inescapable state of everlasting suffering.
UR (Bilical justice) administered with love:
Causing people to experience kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) so they won't have to suffer forever.
"Justice in the life and conduct of the State is possible only as first it resides in the hearts and souls of the citizens" : Plato
Well, as Mike has departed perhaps the rancor in this thread will depart as well. Mike has every right to speak his piece of course, but as I stated from the outset I never wanted this to turn into a debate. God knows we've already had enough of those.
Debates have taken on a different role in here when it comes to ET vs UR. The purpose in no longer to convince one or the other side. That is clearly impossible as it is evident that vocal ET'ers are dye-in-the-wool and no amount of evidence will ever persuade them. The same probably holds true for UR'ers, though a few of us made the switch as a result of the efforts of others, God bless them. The real purpose of debates in here is to speak to the lurkers who read but do not post. Mike and I (and others) are not really talking to each other but to them.
That said, I'd just like to make a few last observations about eternal torment. It's not Mike's fault he's so gung-ho about ET. He and most other ET'ers been saturated in this stuff since birth. One UR'ers expressed total mystification that such an ugly doctrine could grip the human psyche so firmly as ET has done. I've put forth a few reasons, based on the observations of psychologists, about the darker recesses of the mind and how they seem to be drawn more to perversity than to things of beauty.
But Mike and others have consistently refused to own up to two hard facts about ET:
1. that its creation was the product of lies, misinterpretations, obfuscations about scriptures and just plain outright skullduggery that stretch right back to the evil Emperor Justinian and Augustine in the 4th and 5th centuries, the sole purpose of which was to crush the life out of universal restoration, the prevailing doctrine up to that point. About Augustine noted historian Henry Hart Milman had this to say:
Quote:
"With shame and horror we hear from Augustine himself that fatal axiom [doctrine of eternal torment] which impiously arrayed cruelty in the garb of Christian charity."
2. ET places at the center of the universe, not God, but man's "free will". The entire destiny of the universe revolves around a man's supposed free will to "just say no" to God. When a man utters that simple two-letter word, "No" God's beautiful plan for salvation is thrown into total disarray. His sense of Justice has to kick in, overpower His Love for His wayward child and throw the rebel into everlasting torment, thus polluting the universe with sin and rebellion that will go on for all eternity, in direct contradiction of the Scriptures that says one day God will overcome all sin and rebellion. Can puny man actually hold that much power over a God so awesome that He sends galaxies crashing into each other with a mere whisper? According to ET'ers the answer is, "Yes, he can".
UR'ers reject such a ridiculous notion. God sent His beloved Son to save 100% of man, not a miserable 0.001% of it. There is something dark and sinister about a doctrine that says it's okay for God to throw 99.999% of mankind in a lake of fire for all time because man, who did not ask to be born, likely never even heard of Jesus and salvation, and made some poor choices in his few short years on this earth has be tortured unconscionably for those choices for eternity.
Lurkers, dwell on these thoughts as you consider which doctrine reflects God's love in the greater light.
ETers say, "But God isn't JUST love ... God is holy and righteous and hates sin."
No one denies that God is all of this and more. But why would a God who IS love, who is holy and righteous and hates sin, allow sin and unrighteousness to remain in control of the hearts of the majority of people? It doesn't fit with ANY of God's attributes.
NOTE: It is NOT my intention to start another debate in here on UR vs ET.
But for those who lurk here and are trying to make up their minds on which is the true theology, I can do no greater a service than direct them to the website below which, of all the material I have read here on the Internet on both UR and ET, is absolutely the most comprehensive, overarching debate between two individuals, one from each camp, on what is undoubtedly the thorniest issue in the Bible, bar none. It is conducted just like a live debate would be. Each man gives an opening statement of their belief and the Biblical foundation for it and then each man addresses each others questions, objections, etc.
I will say that I had temporarily veered off UR and gone back to annihilationism for a short period but reading this debate has renewed my faith in God's absolute determination to save every last human. I will say, and I hope I am non-partial when I say this, that the UR proponent totally blows the ET'er out of the water and you will see why when you read Logos_x's (aka Stephen) posts #3, 8 & especially 12. I am still reading the debate but I can say that up to this point it is absolutely riveting, glue-you-to-your-seat stuff. Just a preview---logos_x asks Kevin (ET proponent) 24 questions which no ET'er could answer without admitting that their doctrine is fatally flawed. Here are 12 of them:
I hope many of you get as much pleasure (and learning) out of reading this debate as I did. be warned: it is long, but well worth the effort. Enjoy!
There are better and are absolute .... the best debate is recorded in Matthew 25:37-46
So we are back to "my scholars versus yours," which nearly always happens in an ET verus UR debate. Like thrillobyte said, lurkers will examine the evidences for both points of view and will decide on their validity. That is what we URs hope will happen.
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:41&46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."
Here are fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:41&46.
Literally translated it means "age-during corrective chastisement."
Concordant Literal, Young’s literal, Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham’s Emphasized, Scarlett’s, J.W. Hanson’s New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth’s (unedited), Clementson’s, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger’s Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010).
See what other Greek scholars say about it too. Chapter Eleven
The argument about “eternal hell” nearly always gets bogged down with the words, “My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars,” and the result is nearly always a stalemate.
My Greek scholars are Louis Abbott and the many Greek scholars he quotes in chapters three and twelve of
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS An Analytical Study of Words
Like I said before, if you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.
But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that that is exactly what God is like.
I agree with this, Mike. It seems as though Universalism is a twisting of the Word to fit a Hell-less reality. I think it's disingenuous at best. I don't see where the bible supports this theology. Revelation 21:8: "But the fearful, and unbelieving ... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone." I mean that's pretty self explanatory.
Hopefully you are never fearful, even when thinking about people you love burning forever - that still counts.
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Arn't you glad ETers don't run the judicial system?
Here is what we urs hope will happen
