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Hopefully you are never fearful, even when thinking about people you love burning forever - that still counts.
It doesn't matter what I think, it's waht the Bible says. We can't, through human reasoning, say what God is or isn't. God is holy, merciful, loving, and completely righteous. Why do you think Ananias and Saphira fell down dead after lying to the Apostles about how much they gave?Who did that? What about Jesus overturning the tables of the money changers in the temple? What do you think Revelation is all about? Why do Universalists dismiss entire parts of the New Testament when it doesn't jive with this image of God that they have? Just because God is Love does not mean He is not holy and righteous.
It doesn't matter what I think, it's waht the Bible says. We can't, through human reasoning, say what God is or isn't. God is holy, merciful, loving, and completely righteous. Why do you think Ananias and Saphira fell down dead after lying to the Apostles about how much they gave?Who did that? What about Jesus overturning the tables of the money changers in the temple? What do you think Revelation is all about? Why do Universalists dismiss entire parts of the New Testament when it doesn't jive with this image of God that they have? Just because God is Love does not mean He is not holy and righteous.
I think BHFT was referring to the fearful being thrown in the lake of fire. If in fact you fear your family/friends are headed to hell then you are going there to by being fearful. At least I think that's what was meant.
It doesn't matter what I think, it's waht the Bible says. We can't, through human reasoning, say what God is or isn't. God is holy, merciful, loving, and completely righteous. Why do you think Ananias and Saphira fell down dead after lying to the Apostles about how much they gave?Who did that? What about Jesus overturning the tables of the money changers in the temple? What do you think Revelation is all about? Why do Universalists dismiss entire parts of the New Testament when it doesn't jive with this image of God that they have? Just because God is Love does not mean He is not holy and righteous.
URs believe the Bible teaches punishment, even severe punishment.
But we see it a corrective in nature, (kolasis aionion) age-during corrective chastisement, not God sustaining people alive in an inescapable state of everlasting suffering.
The issue really does come down to which Greek scholars you choose to rely on.
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:41&46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."
Here are fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:41&46.
Literally translated it means "age-during corrective chastisement."
Concordant Literal, Young’s literal, Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham’s Emphasized, Scarlett’s, J.W. Hanson’s New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth’s (unedited), Clementson’s, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger’s Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010).
See what other Greek scholars say about it too. Chapter Eleven
My Greek scholars are Louis Abbott and the many Greek scholars he quotes in chapters three and twelve of
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS An Analytical Study of Words
But like thrillobyte said, both ETers and URs will probably live out our lives and die believing the way we do now.
What we URs get great pleasure from though is guiding lurkers on the forum who haven't yet made up their mind, to the reasons why we believe the way that we do; for example UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY Universal Salvation University
It doesn't matter what I think, it's waht the Bible says. We can't, through human reasoning, say what God is or isn't. God is holy, merciful, loving, and completely righteous. Why do you think Ananias and Saphira fell down dead after lying to the Apostles about how much they gave?Who did that? What about Jesus overturning the tables of the money changers in the temple? What do you think Revelation is all about? Why do Universalists dismiss entire parts of the New Testament when it doesn't jive with this image of God that they have? Just because God is Love does not mean He is not holy and righteous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj
I think BHFT was referring to the fearful being thrown in the lake of fire. If in fact you fear your family/friends are headed to hell then you are going there to by being fearful. At least I think that's what was meant.
Yes. That is what I meant. You quoted that verse, so if you think unbelievers will be in a literal lake of fire, you have to believe fearful people will, too. That includes a LOT of people.
Is there anyone you know on earth who is as close to holy and righteous as humanly possible? Think of that person and ask yourself if that person would set someone on fire and leave them that way. Not even a "pretty good" person would do that, would they? There is not a separate definition of "holy" and "righteous" for God. Holiness and righteousness are always good.
If you're really interested in why we believe like we do, hang around and read our posts. UR is biblically-based and comes from understanding the true nature of God. Most of us believed in ET for decades before realizing His true character is not a split personality. The things in the bible that appear to say God will burn people forever are based on parables, symbolism, etc. For example, why do people think the lake of fire spoken of in Revelation is real, but they don't believe we'll worship a real lamb?
The believer will spend eternity in the lake of fire
Freudian slip? Mike appears determined to get as many people thrown into hell as he possibly can!
But seriously,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
These questions are easily answered by any believer with knowledge of Bible doctrine.
8] Do they believe that the last enemy to be destroyed [Gk: abolished] is death? Yes.
But do they teach that ALL death, including the second death, will be abolished? No.
Answer:The last enemy to be destroyed is physical death, not the second death. Physical death is destroyed by the resurrection. Even unbelievers will be resurrected. And in their resurrected bodies they will be confined to the lake of fire forever. (Daniel 12:2; Rev 20:11-15).
I just wanted to add this one last word: anyone in here who stands on UR could have blown out of the water Mike's refutations of the 12 questions and answers I posed. No contest.
But there was one that was absolutely glaring. And even at this late date and as determined as I was to not get into a debate, I just had to address this bald misinterpretation of Paul's words for those who are trying to decide which doctrine makes the most sense and I cannot let them walk away believing Mike is telling the truth when he isn't. Here is the passage:
Quote:
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Now Mike can clearly see that Paul makes no distinction as to which type of death---physical, spiritual, first, second---he is referring to when he writes Corinthians so Mike cannot claim with any authority whatsoever that Paul is referring solely to physical death. In fact, logically-speaking, physical death would be the absolute LAST death Paul would be talking about here because all of this is taking place at the very end of the eons when Christ is handing over to the Father the fruits of His work, the salvation of mankind--LONG, LONG after the last human has died and there is no more physical death to be destroyed. Therefore verse 26 has to be referring to spiritual death, more specifically the Second Death. But Mike can't admit this because to do so would be to confront a hard reality that puts the final nail in the coffin of ET: that because Paul is speaking of the second death here, it clearly is the second death that God is destroying---proving beyond any shadow of doubt that eternal torment is a fraud.
FACT: if God is destroying the second death, as Paul says, then He is destroying the lake of fire because it has served its purpose. No lake of fire, no souls suffering in eternal torment. Simple as that.
I just wanted the silent majority to be aware of this fact.
I haven't read the debate or know what this minister has to say about these 12 questions but I do know that half of your answers are wrong about what ET's believe. Given the time I could probably find a verse to back up my answers but for now, I'll be short and show you the errors
I assume that you are addressing ET believers with these questions. But who did you get the answers from? Not from an ET who knows his Bible.
Do they believe the fire in I Cor.3:15 burns mans’ works, but not the man himself? Yes.
But do they teach that this same fire in Rev.20:15 also burns works, not the man? No.—Wrong
You are blending 2 questions to where an ET would answer yes and no. First, it is not
The same fire. In Rev 20.15 there are no works to burn, only the man who did not believe
And therefore was not found in the book of Life. Which lists only believers. He is burned
Do they believe that God is absolutely and totally sovereign (Eph. 1:11)? Yes.
But do they teach that God exercises sovereignty over man’s supposed "free" will? No. Wrong
No where in scripture does it say man has “free will” regarding his salvation. God picks,
God draws, God causes him to believe and God saves. Man is born in utter depravity and on
His own he would never choose God. Everyone would go to Hell. The question is not “Why to men end up in Hell? But Why does God in His love choose to save any of us in our sin?
Do they believe that Jesus came to destroy all the works of the Devil? Yes
Do they believe He will? No. Wrong, yes is the answer. Death and the Devil are cast into the
Lake of Fire and are sealed in there forever along with all those who refuse to believe in Jesus
Do they believe that Jesus Christ IS the Saviour of the whole world (I Jn 4:14)? Yes.
But do they teach that Jesus Christ will SAVE the whole world? No. You probably want to
Know why? Snippets of verses, “whoever believes in Jesus will be saved” But not everyone believes“Whoever calls on Jesus will be saved” But not everyone calls. “Those who confess
They are sinners and repent will be saved” But very few confess and even fewer turn away
From their sin. For these and many other reasons, Christ will not save the whole world. God
Cannot look upon sin so only sinless people get into Heaven and the only way to get sinless
Is to believe on Jesus’ death as payment for your sin and take Him as your Lord.
Do they believe that presently Christ only has immortality (I Tim. 6:16)? Yes – No, anyone who
Has a soul is immortal, either in Heaven or in Hell. God, the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit who all make up the Godhead are of course immortal.
But do they teach the truth therefore that men’s souls are mortal and not immortal? No.—multiple answers :Do they teach?” NO “The truth as stated in the rest of the sentence? No, It is not truth, all man’s souls are immortal. The physical body dies which SEEMS like we are mortal, but the Soul inside us Lives forever.
Do they believe that the soul that sins shall DIE (Ezek. 18:4)? Yes.—This is not talking about physical death, but spiritual death in Hell if they don’t have their sins forgiven.
But do they teach that souls of deceased sinners are actually DEAD? No. Again, deceased people are now physically dead but their spirit is still alive
Do they believe ALL God purposed, spoke, and willed (Isa. 46:10-11), He will do? Yes.
But do they teach that God’s "will" to save all, I Tim. 2:4, etc., will be done? No.== The verse says it is not the express desire of God that anyone should die spiritually. He doesn’t want that to happen, It says God is not willing (desirous) but He is not forcing men to believe in Him.
BIG ONE!
Do they believe that the last enemy to be destroyed [Gk: abolished] is death? Yes.
But do they teach that ALL death, including the second death, will be abolished? No.Wrong Yes we do teach that. This is what Heaven is like Revelation 21.4and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.” The second death is when the unbelievers are cast into Hell forever.
Do they believe that all things are possible with God (Mark 10:27)? Yes.
But do they teach that it is possible for God to save nonbelievers after they die? No.—that is because God cannot do anything that is against His nature of being Holy. A nonbeliever is unholy and cannot be saved after they die. They had to decide while they were alive if they would believe or not.
Do they believe that God’s love will never fail (I Cor. 13:8)? Yes.
But do they teach that God’s love will never fail in saving the world He loves? No. Again, God is Holy and He cannot be around or look upon sinners. Yes, He loves His creation but they rebelled against Him and chose to stay in rebellion, in their sin and never believed in Him. You can’t have sin in Heaven or it wouldn’t be Heaven.
Do they believe that loving our enemies means doing good and not evil to them? Yes.
But do they teach that God will never subject His enemies to eternal torture and evil? No we don’t teach that because God will punish everyone who has rebelled against Him.
Do they believe that Jesus' death took all sin away? Yes
Do they believe all sin is taken away? No. This depends on the context of your question and there are 2 ET theologies about this. In “Limited Atonement” Jesus suffered and paid for all the sins of those people who would go to Heaven. In “Unlimited Atonement” Jesus suffered and paid for the sins of the whole world. In my opinion. Why should Jesus suffer for the sins of those who would never believe in Him?
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URs believe in punishment, even severe punishment
Not even a "pretty good" person would do that, would they? There is not a separate definition of "holy" and "righteous" for God. Holiness and righteousness are always good.
Mike appears determined to get as many people thrown into hell as he possibly can!
Wrong answers
