Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Another excerpt:
"A few words of caution: I hope I have made it clear that in teaching universal salvation, I have not tried to minimize sin, nor have I taught that sinners will be saved while still clinging to their sins. I believe that many people have terrible sufferings awaiting them after they leave this life-how long and how severe I leave up to a loving and just God. But I believe that God never punishes for punishment's sake. He always has the sinner's repentance and restoration in view, and in His wisdom He knows exactly what it will take in each case to bring about the desired results!"
The sad thing is they polled readers and ET won the debate. It seems people weren't able to accept this new way of thinking so a lot voted tie. I wonder why UR is so frightening to some? As if you will be sent to hell for not believing in hell as eternal suffering.
I have encountered several ETers on other forums who said they believe that I am going to suffer forever in hell unless I start believing in eternal torment. They reason that I am rejecting part of God's word and because of that I deserve to suffer forever in hell even though I told them that I am trusting in Jesus as my Saviour.
That is a good illustration of just how extreme ETer can become in their theological outlook. Under that kind of threat new Christians will probably not be open to considering that the Bible teaches UR.
I have encountered several ETers on other forums who said they believe that I am going to suffer forever in hell unless I start believing in eternal torment. They reason that I am rejecting part of God's word and because of that I deserve to suffer forever in hell even though I told them that I am trusting in Jesus as my Saviour.
That is a good illustration of just how extreme ETer can become in their theological outlook. Under that kind of threat new Christians will probably not be open to considering that the Bible teaches UR.
Reading through Rodger's link I was reminded of James: "Mercy triumphs over judgment". If God commands us to refrain from judgment and to show mercy, the question that occurs to me is, "As James is speaking through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, he is obviously speaking for God. Could the HS be telling him (and therefore to us) that God holds Himself to at least as high a standard as He holds for us? Or does He say, "Do as I say, and not as I do."
If the latter, then we are all in serious trouble indeed. But if the former (as I sincerely believe He does) then when all men stand in front of Him to be judged, which then should we expect to receive the greater portion of---mercy or judgment? No one's (even God's) judgment can be in absolute equal in balance with their judgment for then the judge can only at best reach a stalemate. One has to outweigh the other if a verdict is to be rendered. I like to think that if James is saying that mercy trumps judgment, then God's mercy for all His errant children will win at some point. This cannot be so in the case of eternal torment, for obviously if ET is true then God's sense of judgment is the greater attribute than His sense of mercy---exactly the opposite of what He tells James to teach us. Sounds like a gaping contradiction to me.
NOTE: It is NOT my intention to start another debate in here on UR vs ET.
But for those who lurk here and are trying to make up their minds on which is the true theology, I can do no greater a service than direct them to the website below which, of all the material I have read here on the Internet on both UR and ET, is absolutely the most comprehensive, overarching debate between two individuals, one from each camp, on what is undoubtedly the thorniest issue in the Bible, bar none. It is conducted just like a live debate would be. Each man gives an opening statement of their belief and the Biblical foundation for it and then each man addresses each others questions, objections, etc.
I will say that I had temporarily veered off UR and gone back to annihilationism for a short period but reading this debate has renewed my faith in God's absolute determination to save every last human. I will say, and I hope I am non-partial when I say this, that the UR proponent totally blows the ET'er out of the water and you will see why when you read Logos_x's (aka Stephen) posts #3, 8 & especially 12. I am still reading the debate but I can say that up to this point it is absolutely riveting, glue-you-to-your-seat stuff. Just a preview---logos_x asks Kevin (ET proponent) 24 questions which no ET'er could answer without admitting that their doctrine is fatally flawed. Here are 12 of them:
I hope many of you get as much pleasure (and learning) out of reading this debate as I did. be warned: it is long, but well worth the effort. Enjoy!
Well, I finished the debate. And what a debate it was!
There were many stumbling points between the two men, but by far the greatest stumbling block was the definition of "aion". That darn, pesky "aion" again---always rearing its stupid, ugly little head. Does it mean "age unto the ages" or does it mean (shudder) "forever and ever"
The ancient Greeks will never fathom the level of grief and confusion they have wrought mankind by assigning TWO definitions that mean the exact opposite of each other!!!!!!!
I would just like to add this: believing in eternal torment is to believe that God will condemn 99.9999% of mankind to unending, mind-bending excruciating torment in hell---and that's "aionion", folks! Forever and ever and ever and ever!
But believing in universal redemption is believing that God is great and loving and wonderful and able enough to save every last one of His precious children from such torture, each in His own good time---100% of His children whom He says He loves with an undying love.
That, to me, is "Good News".
99.9999% of mankind roasting in eternal fire doesn't sound like any kind of victory Christ should or would be proud of. In fact it sounds like just about the worst news I could ever receive.
Well, I finished the debate. And what a debate it was!
There were many stumbling points between the two men, but by far the greatest stumbling block was the definition of "aion". That darn, pesky "aion" again---always rearing its stupid, ugly little head. Does it mean "age unto the ages" or does it mean (shudder) "forever and ever"
The ancient Greeks will never fathom the level of grief and confusion they have wrought mankind by assigning TWO definitions that mean the exact opposite of each other!!!!!!!
I would just like to add this: believing in eternal torment is to believe that God will condemn 99.9999% of mankind to unending, mind-bending excruciating torment in hell---and that's "aionion", folks! Forever and ever and ever and ever!
But believing in universal redemption is believing that God is great and loving and wonderful and able enough to save every last one of His precious children from such torture, each in His own good time---100% of His children whom He says He loves with an undying love.
That, to me, is "Good News".
99.9999% of mankind roasting in eternal fire doesn't sound like any kind of victory Christ should or would be proud of. In fact it sounds like just about the worst news I could ever receive.
Hi Thrillobyte. Aion just means "age". However Aionios (an adjective) means age boundary from which something continues beyond. For example if I say you would have Aionios life, then it would mean that you would have life that continues beyond this present age. It doesn't mean it would end. It doesn't tell us how long it would exist, only that it would exist beyond the age. If I tell you would have aionios punishment then it would mean you would continue to be punished beyond this age but that doesn't mean it would be forever.
Wait, what about John 3:16? It says that whosoever BELIEVES in Him will be saved? How do you get around that in UR? Are you saying that those who don't believe in Christ will be saved as well? How?
Wait, what about John 3:16? It says that whosoever BELIEVES in Him will be saved? How do you get around that in UR? Are you saying that those who don't believe in Christ will be saved as well? How?
Believe IN is a misconception fostered in linguistic ignorance. It is pisteou eis which is believe ON/INTO.and has nothing to do with any superficial intellectual acknowledgment of Christ which (as we are told) even the demons are capable of. Only God knows who believe ON His Son and we can only tell by their "fruits."
Wait, what about John 3:16? It says that whosoever BELIEVES in Him will be saved? How do you get around that in UR? Are you saying that those who don't believe in Christ will be saved as well? How?
The same Greek word for perish is the same word that means to be lost.
We are all in a state of being lost till Jesus finds us. What Does it Mean to "Perish?"
And sooner or later He will find us all for God wills that all mankind be saved.
God will have (desires if you like) all men to be saved
(1 Timothy 2:4). It is God’s “pleasure” that all mankind be saved.
And “God is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will” (Ephesians 1:11)
Change it to read “in accord with the counsel of His desire or pleasure” if you like.
Because God says
"My counsel shall stand. I will do all my pleasure (the saving of all mankind is part of all of God's pleasure)
Yea I have spoken it.
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it.
I will also do it."
Isaiah 46:10,11
"Who will have"
To intend. To purpose.
To will. To have in mind.
To be resolved and determined.
-Dr. Marvin Vincent-
Who will have all men to be saved (ov pantav anqrwpouv qelei swqhnai).
Literally, who willeth all men, etc. As who, or seeing that he, giving the ground of the previous statement. Prayer to God for all is acceptable to him, because he wills the salvation of all.
Qelei willeth, marking a determinate purpose.
"oV pantaV anqrwpouV qelei swqhnai kai eiV epignwsin alhqeiaV elqein "
“As in Adam all are dying; thus also in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Corinthians 15:22). Notice it doesn't say "all who are in Christ," but instead "in Christ shall all"). God could have said "all who are in Christ, but instead He said "in Christ shall all."
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.
(the saving of all mankind is part of all of God's pleasure)
Job 23:13 “But he stands alone, and who can oppose him?
He does whatever he pleases.
(the saving of all mankind is part of what pleases Him)
Isaiah 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
(the saving of all mankind is part of all of which God desires)
So we see God does all His pleasure, He does whatever He pleases, and His word accomplishes that which He desires.
His will = His desire.
What does He desire?
THE SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND
Why will it happen?
Because God Himself will see to it that it gets done.
Hi Thrillobyte. Aion just means "age". However Aionios (an adjective) means age boundary from which something continues beyond. For example if I say you would have Aionios life, then it would mean that you would have life that continues beyond this present age. It doesn't mean it would end. It doesn't tell us how long it would exist, only that it would exist beyond the age. If I tell you would have aionios punishment then it would mean you would continue to be punished beyond this age but that doesn't mean it would be forever.
Sounds reasonable, trettep. I like that description. I once read where someone likened aionion to a ship sailing out to sea. You watch the ship until it disappears into the horizon. Beyond that point you have no concept of what happened to it because its fate is indeterminable for you. That's how Jesus describes the fate of the goats and the sheep and why both can have equal destinies that are indeterminable in length because Jesus specifically used the word, aionion to describe their fates. What happens beyond the "ages unto the ages" God has chosen not to reveal that to us.
Sounds reasonable, trettep. I like that description. I once read where someone likened aionion to a ship sailing out to sea. You watch the ship until it disappears into the horizon. Beyond that point you have no concept of what happened to it because its fate is indeterminable for you. That's how Jesus describes the fate of the goats and the sheep and why both can have equal destinies that are indeterminable in length because Jesus specifically used the word, aionion to describe their fates. What happens beyond the "ages unto the ages" God has chosen not to reveal that to us.
Good description thrill .... Thanks!!
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Wait, what about John 3:16?
