A quick reply to a skeptic. (believing, dogma, evolve, praying)

[ancient warrior]

Originally Posted by littlewitness

Shalom...
"Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.
Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
Lord, how are they increased that trouble me! many are they that rise up against me.
Many there be which say of my soul, There is no help for him in God. Selah.
But thou, O LORD, art a shield for me; my glory, and the lifter up of mine head.
I cried unto the LORD with my voice, and he heard me out of his holy hill. Selah.
I laid me down and slept; I awaked; for the LORD sustained me.
I will not be afraid of ten thousands of people, that have set themselves against me round about.
Arise, O LORD; save me, O my God: for thou hast smitten all mine enemies upon the cheek bone; thou hast broken the teeth of the ungodly.
Salvation belongeth unto the LORD: thy blessing is upon thy people. Selah."
Psalm 2,3 KJV

RESPONSE:

Do you always respond with an off-topic scripture when you have no answer?

[Richard1965]

Originally Posted by kids in america_

I have to humbly disagree. Ezekiel 26:7-11 is describing the destruction of the island city. Mike the name “Tyre” or “Tyrus” means a “rock”, in reference to the island on which the city was built.
Also in Eze 28:2 quotes the Prince of Tyre saying, "I am a god; I sit in the seat of the gods, in the heart of the seas…" And Eze 26:4 quotes ‘god’ speaking through Ezekiel the prophet saying, "…I will scrape its soil from it and make it a bare rock. ", these references are clearly to that island. As I pointed out earlier, Ez.29:17-20 (27th year) makes clear that Nebuchadnezzar had not accomplished what the earlier oracles said he would accomplish. It's obvious from these verses that the destruction of Tyre by Nebuchadnezzar hadn't happened. In Ezekiel Ch. 29, you will read that Nebuchadnezzar and his soldiers would be given the land of Egypt, because they labored hard against Tyre; every head was made bald and every shoulder was rubbed bare... (v. 18), but they did not overcome Tyre. So instead God would give Nebuchadnezzar and his men the land of Egypt.

Maybe Tyre, meaning 'Rock'...Does not neccessarily imply that it was built on a rock...Maybe it has to do with the strength of it's army or king, etc....Maybe we just assume it is implying the rock in the sea....Just as some assume that the rock that Christ was talking about was Peter, that He would build His Church on...We have a whole world of Catholics that believe that...

[ancient warrior]

Originally Posted by Richard1965

Read that one about the donkey and foal again...It could possibly be that that foal was not yet born...Also,
Mat 21:7 And broughtG71 theG3588 ass,G3688 andG2532 theG3588 colt,G4454 andG2532 putG2007 onG1883 themG846 theirG848 clothes,G2440 andG2532 they setG1940 him thereon.G1883 G846

G846
αυτός
autos
ow-tos'
From the particle αυ au (perhaps akin to the base of G109 through the idea of a baffling wind; backward); the reflexive pronoun self, used (alone or in the compound of G1438) of the third person, and (with the proper personal pronoun) of the other persons: - her, it (-self), one, the other, (mine) own, said, ([self-], the) same, ([him-, my-, thy-]) self, [your-] selves, she, that, their (-s), them ([-selves]), there [-at, -by, -in, -into, -of, -on, -with], they, (these) things, this (man), those, together, very, which. Compare G848.

Notice the word for 'them', also means 'her' or 'it'...So, maybe they weren't speaking of Him riding both, or maybe He was, the Donkey could have been pregnant with a foal or colt...which would imply riding both...After all it said a foal with it...Just as we might say 'she is with child' as another way of saying that 'she is pregnant'...

RESPONSE:

>>It could possibly be that that foal was not yet born<<

It could "possibly be" that they were really riding in a UFO if we want to indulge in "possibly be" fantasies.

But if we want to deal in reality and go by the plain meaning of words, the king mounted an ass and a colt (already born obviously) and Matthew has Jesus riding on "them" that is, an ass and a colt (already born). Same story.

[ancient warrior]

Originally Posted by Richard1965

Maybe Tyre, meaning 'Rock'...Does not neccessarily imply that it was built on a rock...Maybe it has to do with the strength of it's army or king, etc....Maybe we just assume it is implying the rock in the sea....Just as some assume that the rock that Christ was talking about was Peter, that He would build His Church on...We have a whole world of Catholics that believe that...

RESPONSE:

Maybe, maybe, maybe???

>>Just as some assume that the rock that Christ was talking about was Peter, that He would build His Church on...We have a whole world of Catholics that believe that<<

RESPONSE:

Not necessarily.

[Richard1965]

Originally Posted by Rafius

We can argue around in circles about things that have already been explained but it will serve no purpose. Where Tyre was.... on the Island or on the Mainland. Who destroyed it.... Nebby or Alexander. The facts of history and indeed the facts that can be observed today by anyone who visits Tyre, are that Tyre was not destroyed never to be rebuilt. It stands today where it has always stood and is a thriving city, it isn't 'a bare rock where fishermen spread their nets'. Whether ancient Tyre was on the island or on the mainland becomes irrelevant really because modern Tyre covers both areas. The prophecy that Tyre would never be rebuilt is proven false and the only way you can resolve that is by claiming that modern Tyre is not Biblical Tyre. Epic fail I'm afraid.

Yes...on some 6 occasions.

Yes and I have also been to museums and archaeological sites where they are digging up some areas within the modern city to investigate the history of ancient Tyre below. I have, whilst there, listened to lectures given by eminent professors of history/archaeology who explained how ancient Tyre was built upon by Roman, Greek and Byzantine civilisations. Frankly, I'll take their word for where Tyre was and what happened to it and whether it was rebuilt or not... rather than your Bible apologist's twisting, turning and jumping through hoops to try to make the prophecy fit the facts of history.

I have also witnessed, with my own eyes, ancient Tyrian house foundations, uncovered during archaeological excavation....right there where the island once was...right there under the modern town. To anyone that has been there and seen it for themselves, claims that Tyre was 'never rebuilt' are nothing short of lunacy.

Ushu and Tyre are not the same places. Tyre was an island city and Ushu was an area consisting of a residential area and a port area with warehouses and other commercial buildings used for supplying Tyre with water and other goods. Josephus says that Ushu and Tyre sometimes fought with each other. Does that sound like the same city to you? Ushu and Tyre are not the same places. Although Ushu may have been part of the kingdom of Tyre, just as Britain was part of the Roman Empire,...it wasn't Tyre.

It was the island stronghold that Nebuchadnezzar spent 13 years trying to take. To claim that Nebuchadnezzar struggled for 13 years to try to take this mainland area that had always been an easy conquest for invading armies is a desperation attempt to salvage a prophecy that obviously failed. If Ezekiel's prophecy was that the mainland 'city' would be destroyed, then one would logically conclude that his prophecy would be against Ushu instead of Tyre. In directing it against Tyre, he was predicting that it would be the island stronghold with it's 150ft high walls that would be destroyed. Common sense should tell this to anyone who doesn't have a prophecy fulfilment axe to grind.

The idea of the prophecy was that the splendour of Tyre was going to be brought to an end and that Tyre would never be rebuilt. That prophecy failed because Tyre was rebuilt after Alexander.

One can only wonder why a fishing village or non-existent place named Tyre would be on UNESCO'S list of World Heritage Sites.

The historical sources show the mainland area was named Ushu. You, on the other hand, claim it was Tyre. Fine! You are free to contradict The Encyclopaedia Britannica, Wikipedia, EnCarta and every other historical source which says you are wrong. There is nothing left to do except agree to disagree and move on....to Egypt.

Founded at the start of the third millennium B.C., Tyre originally consisted of a mainland settlement and a modest island city that lay a short distance off shore...The rest of this secular history of Tyre can be found here: Tyre

[Richard1965]

Originally Posted by ancient warrior

RESPONSE:

Maybe, maybe, maybe???

>>Just as some assume that the rock that Christ was talking about was Peter, that He would build His Church on...We have a whole world of Catholics that believe that<<

RESPONSE:

Not necessarily.

Yea...Necessarily...What is your goal anyway of being an atheist and coming into the Christianity forums?...Does it matter to you what we believe to be True?..Do you care?...Or are you just attempting to show off your "superior' intellect?...Or, you might be attempting to disprove Hawyaw to yourself...You have your own atheist forums to go to, why come here and attempt to destroy what others believe?...Most people that attempt this have had a traumatic experience in their rearing in a so called Christian household...Does this describe you?...Were you raised by a type of Carrie White mother?...Or within a abusive cult?...I run accross people like you all the time and they always have a 'skeleton in the closet' as to why they go out of their way to dismantle another persons Faith...The contradictions found in our Scriptures could possibly be misinterpretations...After all, something said 2000 years ago does not have the same meaning or weight that it does today...Things said in our Scriptures could have been meant Metaphorically, Parabolicly or analogically...Much as the 'Travelling Man's' education is moral metaphor...

[Richard1965]

Originally Posted by ancient warrior

RESPONSE:

>>It could possibly be that that foal was not yet born<<

It could "possibly be" that they were really riding in a UFO if we want to indulge in "possibly be" fantasies.

But if we want to deal in reality and go by the plain meaning of words, the king mounted an ass and a colt (already born obviously) and Matthew has Jesus riding on "them" that is, an ass and a colt (already born). Same story.

I have inticated before that 'autos' also means 'her' or 'it'...

[Rafius]

Originally Posted by Richard1965

It is interesting that you left out the part that sometimes the mainland city is referred to as OLD TYRE...hmmm....Very interesting...

What's interesting is that a few posts ago you were telling Mike that Tyre was obviously an island. Now you want to put it on the mainland again.

Originally Posted by Richard1965

Founded at the start of the third millennium B.C., Tyre originally consisted of a mainland settlement and a modest island city that lay a short distance off shore...The rest of this secular history of Tyre can be found here: Tyre

Exactly! Go back and check for yourself.....that is what I have been trying to tell Mike since the discussion started. TYRE was on the island...USHU, a settlement of residential houses and warehousing, was on the mainland. Thanks for the confirmation.

[ancient warrior]

Here is still more infallible and inerrant scripture:

Matthew 27:3-7
"When Judas, his betrayer, saw that Jesus* was condemned, he repented and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. He said, ‘I have sinned by betraying innocent* blood.’ But they said, ‘What is that to us? See to it yourself.’ Throwing down the pieces of silver in the temple, he departed; and he went and hanged himself. But the chief priests, taking the pieces of silver, said, ‘It is not lawful to put them into the treasury, since they are blood money.’ After conferring together, they used them to buy the potter’s field as a place to bury foreigners." (NRSV)

Summary:
1. Judas threw the 30 pieces of silver into the Temple.
2. Judas hanged himself
3. The chief priests bought the potter's field.

Or:

Luke-Acts 1:17:18
"...for he was numbered among us and was allotted his share in this ministry.’Now this man acquired a field with the reward of his wickedness; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out." (NRSV).

Summary:
1. Judas bought the field.
2. Judas fell headlong and burst open.

From Ralph's Biblical Commentary for the Credulous:

Combining these stories what really happened is that Judas threw the money into the Temple and the chief priests bought the field. But Judas bought it back form them. Judas then hanged himself, was resurrected, got so excited that he gnawed through the rope, did a somersault, landed on his head and burst open. Ya' just' gotta' believe!

[ancient warrior]

Originally Posted by Richard1965

I have inticated before that 'autos' also means 'her' or 'it'...

RESPONSE:

We're talking about donkeys, not autos.