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NO kiggy, he didn't say that. Happily for all of us, he said that he would continue to post when he felt he could be helpful. His only intent was not to engage people who just wanted to argue.
I love your beautiful soul, Pleroo. God bless you.
To me, it's obvious that he was more special and unique since he was the ONLY one who has been declared to be without sin. That's pretty significant and I do come to the conclusion that man was unable to resist the urge to sin for whatever reason.
With every temptation man faces God has supplied a way for man to overcome the temptation. Yes He was declared to be without sin sis but that declaration came AFTER the fact not before He was tempted. We are all unique sis the problem is we don't really see just how unique we are.
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Right. ForeORDAINED would imply foreKNOWLEDGE to me. You can say it was only foreknown 30 seconds before the foundation of the "new world" (although since it was apparently prophesied and foreSHADOWED in the OT, that isn't likely), or you can say it was foreknown only AFTER the "fall" into sin. Either way, it would uphold your argument that God didn't know before the creation what would happen.
But, it's all a matter of interpretation, eh? Some would say it was foreordained from the foundation of the "old" world, and it's pretty hard to prove either way, except for based on the pre-supposition one brings to bear on it.
Well Jesus give us this parable
33Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 34And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 36Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 37But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 40When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
If it was foreordained that Jesus was to be slain BEFORE the creation of man why did God bother to send out other servants? Was it just so they could be beaten and killed?
Got to run sis, dinner is ready and my poor old eyes are killing me from being on the computer for so long.
The Omni's and the argument of evil is used against God in the following way. If God knows (Omniscience) that evil will occur and does nothing to stop it, either He is impotent (not Omnipotent) or it is deliberate and He intends (not Omnibenevolent) it to happen. None of this human reasoning is controlling over God. Knowing does not require intent or intervention, since God has expressly intended that we have Dominion on the earth, regardless what He knows that will entail. We are children who MUST spiritually mature sufficiently to love like God on our own. That cannot be forced. We must independently develop (with the influence of the Holy Spirit) the agape love that will eventually eliminate evil from the world. It would do no good whatsoever for God to take back Dominion and force it.
To clarify the confusion that natural disaster evoke . . . the only evil that exists is person to person evil. Natural disasters and the other eventualities and exigencies of our physical existence on the earth cannot be evil . . . unless caused by humans. They can be and are tragic, but they are not evil, just natural. They are part of what we must overcome and endure. God does not intervene where He expressly gave us Dominion.
If God foreknows what man will eat 30 sec. Before man eats is that still foreknowledge?
Why does Gods foreknowledge of what man will do have to be something God foreknew before man was ever created? In other words why do you believe foreknowledge has to be this way?
I don't think God's foreknowledge HAS to be any particular way, but based on what I THINK is true (that God is outside of time) it makes sense to me that God's perspective of what happens within time is all-encompassing.
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Where do you see this idea of foreknowledge in scripture?
Well, I definitely don't see a "30 second" foreknowledge in the bible, based on the idea that the OT stories foreSHADOWED and foreTOLD the need for and the coming of the Christ as well as the final, ultimate result of that coming. So, at the very least, it seems to me that God sees all of history as it has and will unfold. Combined with my understanding (above), various scriptures that have probably already been brought up in this thread, seem to me to support the idea of God's foreknowledge.
But, I can't off-hand think of a specific scripture that necessarily supports the idea of God knowing before creation (the beginning of time) that things would unfold as they did. I'll have to think about that and consider if that's just my pre-assumption having been read into things over the years.
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I don't see this type of foreknowledge in scripture and have given a few scriptures that show this, the Jonah scriptures are a good example.
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If God foreknew Nineveh would repent why do the scriptures say God saw that they repented and so He repented? What reason would God have to repent if He foreknew the outcome?
I've watched your back-and-forth on that passage and tend to side with the fore-knowledge pov making more sense. HOWEVER, I'm not putting a lot of stock in it either way -- I tend to see the OT stories more like parables. And when reading (NT) parables, I've always been cautioned it's important to look at the story as a whole, seeking it's overall theme, rather than trying to make every single element of the story equate exactly to what it is representing.
And, not that there isn't likely much historical truth to some or even most of the OT stories, but I think that the "communications" from God in many instances were sort of creative license used by the authors, I guess you could say. So, I don't know that nit-picking those stories to try to make a "doctrine" based on a literal reading of what God supposedly "said" is the way to go ... not to me anyway. Kwim? I'm more about looking for symbolic and spiritual meaning.
The Omni's and the argument of evil is used against God in the following way. If God knows (Omniscience) that evil will occur and does nothing to stop it, either He is impotent (not Omnipotent) or it is deliberate and He intends (not Omnibenevolent) it to happen. None of this human reasoning is controlling over God. Knowing does not require intent or intervention, since God has expressly intended that we have Dominion on the earth, regardless what He knows that will entail. We are children who MUST spiritually mature sufficiently to love like God on our own. That cannot be forced. We must independently develop (with the influence of the Holy Spirit) the agape love that will eventually eliminate evil from the world. It would do no good whatsoever for God to take back Dominion and force it.
I agree. And I think that's why BOTH sides of this argument possibly (imvvvho) could fall a little short. Pneuma seems to be defending the idea of NO foreknowledge so adamantly because he thinks that if God KNEW that evil would occur and let it happen anyway, that makes God evil. I don't agree ... as you said, God is not required to directly intervene if that goes against his purpose of allowing us to mature into His nature.
And Lego/TKC seem to defend the idea of God as a micro-manager (albeit micro-managing to ensure a GOOD final outcome) because if he's not then they believe it would make him impotent. But I think that one can trust that God's nature within us is powerful enough to ensure the end from the beginning without him directly intervening.
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To clarify the confusion that natural disasters evoke . . . the only evil that exists is person to person evil. Natural disasters and the other eventualities and exigencies of our physical existence on the earth cannot be evil . . . unless caused by humans. They can be and are tragic, but they are not evil, just natural. They are part of what we must overcome and endure. God does not intervene where He expressly gave us Dominion.
Again, I agree. Did my posts unintentionally imply that I was at odds with you on this?
With every temptation man faces God has supplied a way for man to overcome the temptation. Yes He was declared to be without sin sis but that declaration came AFTER the fact not before He was tempted. We are all unique sis the problem is we don't really see just how unique we are.
Perhaps. But apparently the ONLY one who ever DID understand it was Jesus. That makes him unique beyond our uniqueness .
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Well Jesus give us this parable
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33Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 34And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 36Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 37But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 40When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
If it was foreordained that Jesus was to be slain BEFORE the creation of man why did God bother to send out other servants? Was it just so they could be beaten and killed?
I'm going to defer this back to what I said in my previous post to you about parables. I don't think this parable was meant to address the concept of God's foreknowlege. It's spiritual significance lies elsewhere, imo. So, I'm not going to try to force it to support or not support foreknowledge, either way.
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Got to run sis, dinner is ready and my poor old eyes are killing me from being on the computer for so long.
I agree. And I think that's why BOTH sides of this argument possibly (imvvvho) could fall a little short. Pneuma seems to be defending the idea of NO foreknowledge so adamantly because he thinks that if God KNEW that evil would occur and let it happen anyway, that makes God evil. I don't agree ... as you said, God is not required to directly intervene if that goes against his purpose of allowing us to mature into His nature.
I think pneuma just objects to the "God MUST intend the evil" because He knows about it.
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And Lego/TKC seem to defend the idea of God as a micro-manager (albeit micro-managing to ensure a GOOD final outcome) because if he's not then they believe it would make him impotent. But I think that one can trust that God's nature within us is powerful enough to ensure the end from the beginning without him directly intervening.
I think both sides misconstrue the concept of Sovereignty and believe it imposes "MUSTS" on God . . . but it is the exact opposite. Sovereignty poses no constraints whatsoever on God. especially not to contravene His own express will in assigning Dominion to us.
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Again, I agree. Did my posts unintentionally imply that I was at odds with you on this?
No sis . . . I was clarifying what seemed to have confused you about my other post. You might as well be me posting, Bless you.
But I think that one can trust that God's nature within us is powerful enough to ensure the end from the beginning without him directly intervening.
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