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I understand that they all have spiritual application and are to be spiritually discerned.
What I am asking is did they physically happen. Did they?
Some did and some did not, some are written by men who did not understand the Father and attributed evil to the Father.
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As I said before, I can see arguments that S&G did not physically happen - it is debatable. So you think none of the other things physically happened?
Same answer as above
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Lets take another example, "closer to home" so to speak. Did Jesus physically calm a storm while He was here physically on earth? (I'm assuming you believe Jesus was physically here on earth; maybe you don't believe that. Please confirm.)
Yes He literally came and walked the earth. Where did the storm come from Lego? Hint is did NOT come from God.
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But this doesn't address the question at all. If Jesus had power to physically stop a storm, certainly God has power to physically stop an earthquake.
Sorry but Jesus was here in the earth, He had the keys to bind and loose, those keys He gave to us, it is our job to stop the earthquakes and storm, but alas because not many understand why the keys were given or how to use them. The strong man must first be bound Lego. You do understand this correct? What you want God to do is to do something BEFORE the strong man is bound and because He does not you blame God for all the evils that happen in this world.
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Unless you are trying to tell me you don't believe Jesus was physically here on earth.
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There is no implied "IF" in Hezekiah because there is no need for an "IF". God said Hezekiah would die in peace and he did. Case closed.
If no "IF" was implied you have no reason to believe an "IF" is implied in other prophecy were no 'IF" is given. An implied "IF" works as well in those scriptures as it does in the Jonah scriptures.
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Jonah is not as clear cut because God tells Jonah to "preach against" Nineveh and then Jonah tells Nineveh they will be destroyed in 40 days. There is an implied "IF" here for two reasons:
1. the way it was recorded (God's general statement vs. Jonah's specific statement)
2. if there is no "Implied IF" - it makes God a liar.
Correct that is why there is an implied 'IF"
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This is irrelevant as to whether God knew or didn't know what would happen. And in fact we should not assume God did not know what would happen because of this.
Lego if God foreknew and planned it all out before hand that Nineveh would repent then for Him to state that Nineveh would be overthrown in 40 days makes God a liar as He never really intended to do what He said He would do.
If I said I was going to do something, but never intended to do it what does that make me? Come on you can say it, it would make me a liar.
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Already explained. IF they do not repent, God would have overthrown them. They repented, so He did not overthrow them. He knew all this would happen. It was in fact necessary so they would understand and repent.
Again Lego if God never intended to overthrow Nineveh then God is a liar for saying He would overthrow Nineveh in 40 days.
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Biblical condescension. Humans describe God as though He were a man in order to convey an idea. But God is not a man. We cannot exclude the sum of the whole word, especially the parts that show God is omniscient.
That is Gods all knowing aspect and as you know I do NOT exclude it, I just understand it correctly. God looks upon the intent of the hearts and the scriptures actually show this.
And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
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The "IF" has no bearing on God's foreknowledge - God already knows what will happen. The "IF" is for the benefit of us humans, who will have an opportunity to learn and repent.
Sorry but that is incorrect, if God foreknows after the fashion you believe it makes God a liar, for if God never intended to do what He said He would do than that is a lie.
The difference between what you believe and what I believe is that I believe God intended to overthrow Nineveh , but repented from doing so. And guess what the scriptures actually agree with me.
and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
You on the other hand do not believe God intended to overthrow Nineveh (which makes God a liar) so He did not have to repent of anything He said He would do. And guess what scripture disagrees with you.
And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
Brother what need is there for God to repent if He never intended to overthrow Nineveh to began with?
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If prophecy is not set in stone, the whole thing falls apart. 100 prophecies about Christ just might not have happened - God didn't know. Prophecy would be useless to show anything, because anything at all could happen.
Not so brother, one side or the other of prophecy will always be fulfilled, and it is contingent on the choice of man which side is fulfilled.
It is the same with the prophecies concerning Jesus. He did not have to fulfill the prophecies concern Him. He said He could have called 12 legions of angels to deliver Him, but then the scriptures would not have been fulfilled.
Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? 54But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
Jesus knew all the prophecies concerning Him and purposely fulfilled those prophecies.
We see this same thing throughout the scriptures.
And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth:that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.
And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim: 14That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.
All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: 35That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
Why did Jesus do all these things?
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet.
Simply put Jesus did NOT have to fulfill the prophecies concerning Himself (as is seen in the 12 legions scriptures), but He purposely fulfilled them. He went out of His way so to speak to fulfill them.
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God is not a man who should change His mind.
You take one scripture and build a doctrine out of it. If that scripture is to be understood after the fashion you believe what do you do with all the scriptures that say God repents?
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God works all things according to the counsel of His will and purpose.
I agree, but no scripture states that God has pleasure in sin and evil.
4For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
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God has declared the end from the beginning, saying the things that are not yet done as though they are.
As He is the beginning and the end is it such a strange thing to you that He knows Himself or all that He will do.
Please reread this carefully, I don't know if you read it the first time:
We choose everything ourself AND we always choose what God knows will we choose. It cannot be any other way... Unless you are willing to concede any existence of foreknowledge at all. Once something is foreknown 100% (even if it is only 30 seconds before), it must happen. Thats what foreknowledge means. It is foreknown to happen - it will happen. Therefore even in your limited view "30 second" foreknowledge, we still must do what God knows we will do, otherwise it isn't foreknowledge.
Do you understand that 100% foreknowledge demands this? If I have 100% foreknowledge that you will buy a new car tomorrow, then you will buy a new car tomorrow. It cannot be any other way - the 100% foreknowledge demands it.
Now of course no human has 100% foreknowledge. But God can and does.
The difference is brother the foreknowledge you believe in makes God a liar, if God never intends to do what He says He will do that is nothing but a lie.
What I believe is that God gave Jonah the prophecy and God would have done exactly what He said He would have done, however Nineveh repented and so to did God.
The word really means to change, transform, turn, overturn either positively or negatively. Rarely does it mean "wiped out".
Deuteronomy 23:5 Nevertheless the LORD thy God would not hearken unto Balaam; but the LORD thy God turned the curse into a blessing unto thee, because the LORD thy God loved thee.
Esther 9:22 As the days wherein the Jews rested from their enemies, and the month which was turned unto them from sorrow to joy, and from mourning into a good day: that they should make them days of feasting and joy, and of sending portions one to another, and gifts to the poor.
Nehemiah 13:2 Because they met not the children of Israel with bread and with water, but hired Balaam against them, that he should curse them: howbeit our God turned the curse into a blessing.
1 Samuel 10:6 And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man. 7 And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee. 8 And thou shalt go down before me to Gilgal; and, behold, I will come down unto thee, to offer burnt offerings, and to sacrifice sacrifices of peace offerings: seven days shalt thou tarry, till I come to thee, and shew thee what thou shalt do. 9 And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.
Psalms 30:10 Hear, O LORD, and have mercy upon me: LORD, be thou my helper. 11 Thou hast turned for me my mourning into dancing: thou hast put off my sackcloth, and girded me with gladness; 12 To the end that [my] glory may sing praise to thee, and not be silent. O LORD my God, I will give thanks unto thee for ever.
Psalms 114:7 Tremble, thou earth, at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the God of Jacob; 8 Which turned the rock into a standing water, the flint into a fountain of waters.
Isaiah 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. 3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. 60:4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side. 5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.
Lamentations 1:20 Behold, O LORD; for I am in distress: my bowels are troubled; mine heart is turned within me; for I have grievously rebelled: abroad the sword bereaveth, at home there is as death.
Lamentations 5:15 The joy of our heart is ceased; our dance is turned into mourning. 16 The crown is fallen from our head: woe unto us, that we have sinned!
Zephaniah 3:9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.
There is really no problem here with God foreknowing exactly what would happen. God's intent was to save Nineveh by sending Jonah to threaten them with evil, knowing they would repent, and knowing He would repent when they humbled themselves. We don't know all the "preaching" Jonah did, but even if his preaching consisted of only "yet 40 days and Nineveh will be overthrown" then even these words came true, with or without the "if".
Regarding IF in prophecy and the implication that God does not know which half man will choose. This is refuted in Deuteronomy ch 29-31. God tells Israel about the blessing they will receive IF they obey and the curse that will come IF they do not obey. Yet God also tells Moses they will NOT obey. So God foreknew which IF they would choose, yet God gave them both IFs. God also tells why in ch 29: "Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day".
Yes Bob I had considered that scenario, but scripture won't allow that interpretation.
For if God did in fact overthrow Nineveh then scripture would NOT say God repented and did NOT that which He said He would do.
Therefore if God overthrew Nineveh after the fashion you propose, it actually means God did NOT overthrow Nineveh because He repented and did NOT do that which He said He would do.
So either way you cut it, it shows God did NOT overthrow Nineveh.
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Regarding IF in prophecy and the implication that God does not know which half man will choose. This is refuted in Deuteronomy ch 29-31. God tells Israel about the blessing they will receive IF they obey and the curse that will come IF they do not obey. Yet God also tells Moses they will NOT obey. So God foreknew which IF they would choose, yet God gave them both IFs. God also tells why in ch 29: "Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day".
Sorry Bob but this Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day", Is spoken AFTER the fact NOT before.
Moses Goes on to explain why they did not see, it was because they did not eat or drink.
Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the LORD your God.
I am NOT referring man to the fruit Bob, I am comparing God to a tree and man to a tree.
If you are concluding that man is good from the fact that “Every good tree [God] brings forth good fruit [man]†then you are comparing man to fruit, at least for a moment.
Yes God is a good tree and therefore every thing/fruit that comes from God must then be good. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit. God is known by His fruit.
I agree.
Everything God created was good. Man is a good tree every thing/fruit that comes from man must then be good. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit. Man is known by his fruit. Adam did NOT bring forth corrupt fruit, sin is of the devil. It is he/the devil that sowed the tares among man. The evil that man does, does not come from himself it comes from the devil. Thus we are to know from whence the evil fruit comes. Sin and evil does not come from God, nor from man, sin is of the devil.
Man is not automatically a good tree. One point of the passage was Jesus telling us that we can know false prophets by their fruit. We can know the children of God from the children of the devil.
Luke 6:43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes. 45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
Brother if God directed or planned man to sin and do evil and man had no recourse but to do this then God is the author of sin and evil. Love worketh nor thinketh evil.
And as I said Paul taught us how to understand Ro.9 potter and the clay, which I have explained many times.
Causing someone to hurt another is evil Bob, therefore God planning man and directing man's steps to be evil to one another IS doing evil to someone.
This is true, However God sows good seed and reaps a good harvest. Everything God does to man is GOOD. Evil IS not good brother.
What you are saying to me is that God does evil to man in order to reap good fruit. Evil sown can only reap evil, evil sown never reaps good.
If God planned mans ruin Bob then God thinketh evil towards man. How can God plan for man to sin and be evil unless He first thought of it/evil? And again you are saying to me that God sowed evil in man for a greater purpose, the law of reaping what one sows forbids such an idea Bob.
Again you are saying that I said something I didn’t say. I never said God “does evil†or “sows evilâ€. I said that God made man weak knowing that man would sin. You believe that God doing this would be evil and this is the crux of our disagreement.
God bringing forth a man who is weak and not perfect, is not evil. Parents bring forth children knowing they will sin. It’s not evil. They see to the end of the process and expect the child to overcome those weaknesses as they learn.
God placing man within evil circumstances is not evil either. God intended man to enter the kingdom of God with much suffering.
Luke 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day
Acts 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled
Acts 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
Acts 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ
Acts 26:22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: 23 That Christ should suffer, [and] that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles
Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us
1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1 Peter 3:17 For [it is] better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1 Peter 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls [to him] in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
1 Peter 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle [you]
Phil 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us:
Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. 10 For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings
Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.
Hebrews 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. 13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach
Thanks Bob for answering some of the questions I asked, but you left many yet unanswered.
If you are concluding that man is good from the fact that “Every good tree [God] brings forth good fruit [man]†then you are comparing man to fruit, at least for a moment.
No more then I am comparing the fruit that comes from God must be good.
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I agree.
If you agree that every thing/fruit that comes from God is good, then why do you believe evil comes from God? Evil is NOT good and scripture warns us not to say it is.
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Man is not automatically a good tree.
Scripture says EVERYTHING God created was GOOD. That includes MAN.
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One point of the passage was Jesus telling us that we can know false prophets by their fruit. We can know the children of God from the children of the devil.
Luke 6:43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes. 45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
The children of God and the children of the devil actually answers your question Bob.
So if man does evil from whence does the evil come?
Does it come from God or from Satan?
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Again you are saying that I said something I didn’t say. I never said God “does evil†or “sows evilâ€. I said that God made man weak knowing that man would sin. You believe that God doing this would be evil and this is the crux of our disagreement.
Well unless you have changed your stance on these things Bob, you have also said that God knew man would sin and intended/planned man to sin. Thus God sowed EVIL and SIN into man and that is the crux of our disagreement.
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God bringing forth a man who is weak and not perfect, is not evil. Parents bring forth children knowing they will sin. It’s not evil. They see to the end of the process and expect the child to overcome those weaknesses as they learn.
However if a parent brings forth a child intending/planning all along that the child to be evil and sin it is EVIL.
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God placing man within evil circumstances is not evil either. God intended man to enter the kingdom of God with much suffering.
Luke 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day
Acts 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled
Acts 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
Acts 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ
Acts 26:22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: 23 That Christ should suffer, [and] that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles
Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us
1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1 Peter 3:17 For [it is] better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1 Peter 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls [to him] in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
1 Peter 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle [you]
Phil 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us:
Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. 10 For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings
Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.
Hebrews 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. 13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach
I have not disputed this brother, I have maintained evil is necessary, EVIL and SIN was ALREADY in the earth before God created man. Thus God placed man in the garden, to be tried by the serpent, however man FAILED the test and because man FAILED the test all the EVIL and SIN ALREADY in the earth became imputed unto man. Man did NOT have to fall into sin and disobedience to be tested by evil. Jesus was tested and passes the test, He is our example.
What you guys believe is that in order for man to be tested by EVIL and SIN is that man had to FALL into EVIL and SIN.
This is contrary to the life of Jesus who was tested yet WITHOUT SIN.
Man did NOT have to fall into sin and disobedience to be tested by evil. Jesus was tested and passes the test, He is our example.
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When God made Adam and Eve, he declared them "good". All they knew was "good". But they were not perfect, because they were made with a free will - could make their own decisions about which tree to eat from. BUT they were told specifically which tree NOT to eat from. Even when Satan asked them if it was true that God said they couldn't eat from the tree of good and evil, Eve went as far to say that they couldn't even touch it. God NEVER said that. He only said to not EAT from it.
Satan enticed them with a lie, and they "chose" to eat from the tree of good and evil. So they now know evil. They had a choice between all the trees in the garden. Remember...there was also a tree of life! They chose the good and evil tree.
Man did NOT have to fall into sin and disobedience to be tested by evil. Jesus was tested and passes the test, He is our example.
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When God made Adam and Eve, he declared them "good". All they knew was "good". But they were not perfect, because they were made with a free will - could make their own decisions about which tree to eat from. BUT they were told specifically which tree NOT to eat from. Even when Satan asked them if it was true that God said they couldn't eat from the tree of good and evil, Eve went as far to say that they couldn't even touch it. God NEVER said that. He only said to not EAT from it.
Satan enticed them with a lie, and they "chose" to eat from the tree of good and evil. So they now know evil. They had a choice between all the trees in the garden. Remember...there was also a tree of life! They chose the good and evil tree.
Why you quoted me is beyond me, must be because you have NOT been following the thread.
I believe in the freewill of man and prophecies fulfillment is hinged on the freewill choice of man.
Lego and Bob do NOT believe man has a freewill and God intended/planned man to be evil and sin before He ever created man. Therefore according to them Adam could NOT do anything other then be disobedient and sin or eat from the tree.
So your disagreement seems to be more against their understanding then mine.
I would suggest that you read the thread to help you understand what we are saying to each other.
Why you quoted me is beyond me, must be because you have NOT been following the thread.
I believe in the freewill of man and prophecies fulfillment is hinged on the freewill choice of man.
Lego and Bob do NOT believe man has a freewill and God intended/planned man to be evil and sin before He ever created man. Therefore according to them Adam could NOT do anything other then be disobedient and sin or eat from the tree.
So your disagreement seems to be more against their understanding then mine.
I would suggest that you read the thread to help you understand what we are saying to each other.
Or they are saying that God foreKNEW that it was inevitable that people WOULD do evil before he ever created them, but went ahead with the plan anyway knowing that "He" could and would ensure that the end result would be GOOD. It (evil) was a necessary BECAUSE it was an inevitable part of reaching the end goal, and so it was God's plan. It seems to me it's just a matter of perspective.
What's with the touchy attitude? I simply expounded on a couple sentences that were posted.
This is an open forum.
I've been following the thread just fine, thanks!
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